How do you teach someone new to guns about quality?

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LocoGringo

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I'm going to sound like a snob, but there are some gun manufacturers who put out bad quality guns more frequently than others. I understand that every gun manufacturer has issues sometimes, but some make bad guns.

Recently, a buddy proudly showed me a handgun he got his wife for her that she used in a concealed carry class. It was a Bryco .380. You could see the recoil spring through the gap between the slide and frame and actually press them together to close that gap. She managed to qualify well according to them, but I would not want to trust my wife's life (or hands) to that gun.

When I pointed out the gap between the slide and frame and subsequently squeezed them together, he seemed concerned and said he'd have a gunsmith take a look at it.

He also has a Taurus Millennium 9mm. It's not the greatest gun in the world either, but he seems to have no complaints. I understand about different budgets and limits, but there is no way I'd trust my or my family's lives to those guns.

I'm no fan of Taurus. Once, my brother asked me about a concealed carry gun and mentioned a couple he was considering. One of them was a Taurus. I forget the specific model, but I'd read about problems with the sights as well as some other issues. I recommended he stay away from the Taurus which he promptly ignored and bought anyway. He brought it to our dad's house to try out and from 3 yards away couldn't get a decent group. It looked like a shotgun pattern, no exaggeration. Then I looked at the gun and noticed the rear sight wiggle. I pointed this out to my brother and he felt appropriately foolish.

Bottom line, how do you tell someone their gun might be junk and not reliable enough to save their life if necessary without being offensive?
 
LocoGringo said:
Bottom line, how do you tell someone their gun might be junk and not reliable enough to save their life if necessary without being offensive?
Click to expand...

Easiest - Don’t. Take them (and their weapons) out to shoot often and hard….they will be reliable or not…

If they are reliable, smile and learn something….If not, hopefully your buddies smile and learn something….
 
Unfortunately, a lot of new gun owners buy by price point and caliber, not by quality and utilitarianism.

Unethical gun stores will often sell what they have in stock or whatever has the highest profit margin potential. I wish more new gun owners would really do their homework and I always told my students to use the rental gun opportunities, available at most good gun ranges, to get a feel for the various calibers and platforms before buying.

I would always reiterate the age old adage, "you get what you pay for" and then I would add ... "especially when it comes to firearms."

Then I would put the old faithful bug in their ear, "What is your life worth? What about the lives of your loved ones? You want it to go bang when you need it to, right?"

That usually does the trick. Always be ready to answer all of their questions.

Unfortunately a lot of new gun owners are impulse buyers. They neither do their homework or ask the right questions. They go by what they've heard on TV or in casual conversation. It's a shame.
 
This is the exact reason I a very very specific firearm. I am the proud owner of a Rohm RG-10. If you know, you know.

When my buddy first showed interest, I brought him into my room and showed him my Rohm. He thought it was cool, well built. Then I showed him my Model 10, my Tokarev, LC9, showed him everything and how to tell they were decent quality. Then we went back to the Rohm, and he saw it wasn't really a quality piece.

It's about showing and educating those who don't know. Teach him how to research about guns, and show him good and bad quality.
 
I agree. How do you tell someone they bought a crap car? Most people think their car is awesome. Who am I to tell them otherwise. When you start a conversation with “I’m probably going to sound like a snob” you probably are. I’m a car snob. When people ask me what car they should buy I just ask them what cars they like and leave it at that.

Rabid Wombat is correct. If they did buy a faulty gun, hopefully they will find out at the range.
 
When we taught the NRA course at our Club, we did include a list of brands we recommended. Sometimes I stepped in it; young lady showed up with the Umawrecks .22 Walther; I kind of sniffed about it, but it ran ok in the class...at least as long as she didn't try to use the double action.
A guy did show up with a SCCY recently; it took a trip back to the mothership, and seems to be working now.
Long and short; most of our local shops don't sell real junk, like the old pot metal Raven .25s.
Twenty two autos are what troubles me; no matter how good they may be, they are subject to ammo quality.
If what they have works in the short term, and is safe, wait and hope they'll develop more refined sensibilities.
Or let them shoot something better that you have; that should set the hook!
Moon
 
rabid wombat said:
Easiest - Don’t. Take them (and their weapons) out to shoot often and hard….they will be reliable or not…

If they are reliable, smile and learn something….If not, hopefully your buddies smile and learn something….
Click to expand...
This is great advice...when there is plenty of ammo to do it. Now that we are trudging through the desert and ammo is difficult to find, much less at a reasonable price, it's not so easy.

I've taken him to the range once, but it was long before I knew he was considering a gun purchase. I showed him a Kahr CM9 that my wife tested at the range (along with 2 others) and she picked that one. The trigger is long, but consistent and it's proven reliable. I also told him he's welcome to try it out at the range with me.

Am I really a snob?!
 
LocoGringo said:
when there is plenty of ammo to do it.
Click to expand...

This is a different lesson for your buddies, also :thumbup:

One lesson took me a while to assimilate…the “Saturday Night Special” bans. This was a disenfranchisement, not a “safety” concern. Low cost, but reliable firearms should be the norm. There are a lot of people no where near as fortunate as I am…they have their rights, too.
 
LocoGringo said:
This is great advice...when there is plenty of ammo to do it.
Click to expand...

This is precisely why I did it my way with my Buddy: no ammo. But he seemed to learn from it. His first purchase was for collection purposes, but his second was for actual use: some sort of Canik. So right off the bat, he went for quality.
 
gobsauce said:
This is precisely why I did it my way with my Buddy: no ammo. But he seemed to learn from it. His first purchase was for collection purposes, but his second was for actual use: some sort of Canik. So right off the bat, he went for quality.
Click to expand...
What do you mean...dry firing? If so, that's good to a point, but you can't test controlability by dry firing. You can't truly get a feel for the gun without actually firing it.

I'm not completely disagreeing with you, just stating that dry fire has its limitations.
 
I let them shoot a range of firearms. I don’t guess I own many real turds but there are some that are noticeably higher quality than others.

Most go away understand quality and that quality is not always synonymous with reliability functional.
 
if you know enough, just say like - you know, someday you should get one of these, and reference a few makes and models that might be considered a top brand. maybe you'll have a dialogue and not offend anyone. they probably looked at them anyway - well, maybe maybe not. It's not like you're giving unsolicited parenting advice.
 
I don't mind budget guns. Frame gaps aren't automatically a problem either. My glocks have loads of daylight and the one I shot most has thousands of accurate rounds through it.

Thinking your fancy new high dollar flared and polished everything combat special is great because of how much you spent seems a surer path to disappointment than a hundred rounds and a Taurus.
 
Last edited:
Murphy in 3.......2........1......

As soon as you say that, your $3800 1911 will fail to feed. Your $6000 2011, with $150 magazines will double feed. And the striker spring in your box stock Glock (or Glock copy) will get all catywompus and fail to ignite a few primers.

High end guns have their fair share of issues to.

Your only real option, let them shoot your guns at the range. They might notice that they're easier to shoot. If your guns are any better.
 
LocoGringo said:
What do you mean...dry firing? If so, that's good to a point, but you can't test controlability by dry firing. You can't truly get a feel for the gun without actually firing it.

I'm not completely disagreeing with you, just stating that dry fire has its limitations.
Click to expand...
I personally have never found a trigger to be "terrible". I don't mind the mushy Mosin Nagant trigger, or the creep of my SKS. I honestly like the Rohm's trigger, I don't find a problem with it.

But I did take the opportunity to show him different trigger systems, SA ,DA ,SA/DA, so on and so forth. He likes single action and despises double action. He doesn't like SA revolvers, but like SA pistols. So he learned quite a bit with dry firing.
 
I don’t think you’re a snob, I think you care about your friend and him being disappointed with a mediocre (or worse) firearm purchase.

With the scarcity and cost of ammo today, going to the range with 300 rounds for a shoot off isn’t easy. So, ya gotta do what ya gotta do to help them in a non judgemental way.

Start with reviews; Gun Tests, manufacturers forums, THR, etc. Show them the results, crap guns will certainly get a slew of crap reviews/comments or threads.

It may be a side by side to show how the grip feels in the hand, what the sights look like in comparison, the fit and finish differences (like the spring issue mentioned above). If it’s dry firing to compare triggers, the quality firearms should have a smoother, crisper and more reasonable trigger pull. Maybe a take-down of the guns to compare inner workings and the “hidden finish” quality of the parts, underside of the slide, inside of the frame, etc.

Then, go to the range. A side by side after all that should be an eye opener.

And, hopefully, your friend takes your advice and looks to purchase a higher quality firearm.

If not, you tried in good faith. Don’t sweat it. :)

Stay safe.
 
Over the years I had a lot of cheap so-called budget guns, from the beforementioned .380 Bryco, Galesis, EAAs, Roehms, Taurus revovlers and semi autos, all the way to the Raven .25s. I also had a few S&W and Colt revolvers, custom 1911s, about 30 Korths, and all kind of other guns in between.
Defects and malfunctions can happen in any gun, regardless of quality and fancy manufacturer's name. A case separation in . factory .357 Magnum round stopped my Colt Python and could not be fixed on the range. My Glock 23/9 had the locking block break after a mere 60,000 rounds, severely affecting accuracy. A Korth had the forcing come cut wrong.

For someone who is not an avid shooter, any gun that functions will work for self defence. My son bought a High Point 9mm when he picked up another gun just to get first hand experience with it. While the trigger is not great, the gun worked and has reasonable accuracy at 10 yards with Winchester white box value pack ammo, better accuracy than the average shooter that frequents the gun ranges that I visit can achieve.

While I have quite a few higher end guns, I still find all kind of firearms intriguing.

High-Point-9mm-10-yards.jpg
 
Quality on gun boards is often largely opinion based. Bring up Hi Points for instance and half the folks will say how dead reliable theirs are, and the other half will talk about what a POS of their cousin's buddy's coworker's is. I used to avoid Taurus, based on that internet hate, until I started reading up on them. Apparently not all Taurus' are created equal and now I own a 942 in .22lr and LOVE it enough that I may pick up one of their .357's to try out if I ever find a good deal.

Point is, personal experience is the best bet. Bite your tongue on the subject unless someone specifically asks you for an opinion.
 
LocoGringo said:
I'm going to sound like a snob, but there are some gun manufacturers who put out bad quality guns more frequently than others. I understand that every gun manufacturer has issues sometimes, but some make bad guns.

Recently, a buddy proudly showed me a handgun he got his wife for her that she used in a concealed carry class. It was a Bryco .380. You could see the recoil spring through the gap between the slide and frame and actually press them together to close that gap. She managed to qualify well according to them, but I would not want to trust my wife's life (or hands) to that gun.

When I pointed out the gap between the slide and frame and subsequently squeezed them together, he seemed concerned and said he'd have a gunsmith take a look at it.

He also has a Taurus Millennium 9mm. It's not the greatest gun in the world either, but he seems to have no complaints. I understand about different budgets and limits, but there is no way I'd trust my or my family's lives to those guns.

I'm no fan of Taurus. Once, my brother asked me about a concealed carry gun and mentioned a couple he was considering. One of them was a Taurus. I forget the specific model, but I'd read about problems with the sights as well as some other issues. I recommended he stay away from the Taurus which he promptly ignored and bought anyway. He brought it to our dad's house to try out and from 3 yards away couldn't get a decent group. It looked like a shotgun pattern, no exaggeration. Then I looked at the gun and noticed the rear sight wiggle. I pointed this out to my brother and he felt appropriately foolish.

Bottom line, how do you tell someone their gun might be junk and not reliable enough to save their life if necessary without being offensive?
Click to expand...
I wouldn't *tell* them anything. I would go with them to the range and let them shoot the one they have in mind and also shoot others of the same caliber and comparable size, and compare both the feel and the accuracy. When I was getting my first gun, I knew I wanted a full size .357 revolver (not to immediately start shooting .357 but to have that option if I wanted it). I succeeded in persuading the gun store guy (who had already given me a lesson) to let me take both the Ruger GP100 and the Smith 686 to the store's range so I could shoot them one cylinder at a time alternately. (I didn't want to shoot one first and then return it for the other because I didn't want however tired I would be to affect my performance.) The Smith was HUGELY more accurate for me, so that's what I bought.
 
I am not saying that you do this, but, if you come across as a snob when you are talking about things to people, they will usually pick up on it, and it may taint the info you are providing.

I like a quality firearm as much as the next guy, own a few, but I also own a few that some might snub their nose at.

People have different situations, budgets and needs, and all we can do sometimes is help them out with what they have, let them shoot others if they are interested and let them make their own choices.

If what they have is not functional or unreliable, that needs to be pointed out, help them fix it if you can, but, if functional and able to do the job at hand, then it is up to them to make their own choices.

d
 
LocoGringo said:
I'm going to sound like a snob, but there are some gun manufacturers who put out bad quality guns more frequently than others. I understand that every gun manufacturer has issues sometimes, but some make bad guns.

Bottom line, how do you tell someone their gun might be junk and not reliable enough to save their life if necessary without being offensive?
Click to expand...

If someone ask my opinion about something before they buy it, I give them my honest opinion and try to steer them in a good direction. If they show me something they already bought that I consider to be junk I politely tell them that that model has had some failures and to watch out for it. In a gentle way of course.
 
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