Jeeze, let's not get overly dramatic. Very few people who purchase hand guns will ever need them to protect their lives or the lives of their loved ones and most guns are going to "bang" when you need them to.
How do you teach someone new to guns about quality?
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Jeeze, let's not get overly dramatic. Very few people who purchase hand guns will ever need them to protect their lives or the lives of their loved ones and most guns are going to "bang" when you need them to.
theotherwaldo
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I have found that some folks can get surprisingly good results from certain firearms, regardless of how "junky" that firearm may be.
Those same folks may get mediocre or poor results from much higher quality firearms that don't fit them or match their style.
Often "it ain't the arrer, it's the injun"... .
Those same folks may get mediocre or poor results from much higher quality firearms that don't fit them or match their style.
Often "it ain't the arrer, it's the injun"... .
crestoncowboy
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I have a clerke 1st just for that reason. Lol. Quite possibly the worst gun ever.
I've seen more opinion than fact based judgement on most guns. Taurus doesn't make a single gun i want. Ive not seen the horrible results that others have seen though. And I've actually liked a few of their wheel guns. I dont want any Taurus wheel gun yet ive seen far more Smith come from the factory not working than Taurus. But the Smith guys turn up their nose at a Taurus. Same for hi point. I don't want one. But ive seen enough used that I believe them to be reliable and quality enough. Kind of like a Corolla, or camry. Nothing special or even desirable. Just sufficient if you like to get their every time and don't mind sorry fit and finish, underpowered, rattling, cheap plastic everywhere ill certainly never own one... but if you just want "good enough".. thats a great choice.
Like some guys and their mowers. Is an old cheap craftsman mower bad quality? There are many 20 year old ones still mowing. But John deere, cub cadet, New Holland, Xmarks etc etc sell models for many thousands more. Don't last any longer either. Can't tell if a yard was mowed with which one Just nicer. Maybe faster. But higher quality? Idk.
Some like the bryco, Jennings, Lorcin, rohm (especially their double actions) and Clerke were just junk. You could tell they were junk by looking. The clerke was 15 bucks when a Smith was several hundred (80s....not 30s lol). The one I have I can hold the cylinder and work the trigger DA. Lol. I can grab the barrel and the grip and flex the whole gun too. Luckily there was never a Clerke 2nd. Just the 1st.
I don't bother telling people how bad their guns are. Ive bought too many thousand dollar plus guns that didn't work right while ive seen people buy too many 2-300 dollar guns that worked perfectly to bother.
JeeperCreeper
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How do you tell someone that their wife is ugly? Or their kid is untalented? Or their tattoo is stupid?
Generally you don't.
What I do is "tell my story". That is to say, "when I started out, I used to buy up all the cheap budget options and I found out I could condense 4 mediocre handguns into one decent one and have money left over". Some humble anecdotes gives advice without being a jerk and allows someone to go on their own journey.
Plus, if someone truly relies on junk guns, they really aren't "gun people" the same way this forum population is. So they may never be convinced otherwise, being "just a casual".
Having said that, budget options are great the past 10 years. Less to avoid than decades prior.
So it's easier to steer people to quality budget like Ruger or some of the many imports from Turkey or Europe
Generally you don't.
What I do is "tell my story". That is to say, "when I started out, I used to buy up all the cheap budget options and I found out I could condense 4 mediocre handguns into one decent one and have money left over". Some humble anecdotes gives advice without being a jerk and allows someone to go on their own journey.
Plus, if someone truly relies on junk guns, they really aren't "gun people" the same way this forum population is. So they may never be convinced otherwise, being "just a casual".
Having said that, budget options are great the past 10 years. Less to avoid than decades prior.
So it's easier to steer people to quality budget like Ruger or some of the many imports from Turkey or Europe
roval
Member
i agree with everybody who says DON'T. unless you are the one ponying up the money to buy your friend his gun then you shouldn't say anything about his guns more than "just make sure you practice with it and everything is working".those are his guns not yours. he already has the gun and is happy with it.
why do you have to rain on someone's parade.
why do you have to rain on someone's parade.
BigBL87
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This pretty much encapsulates my thoughts.
I will also add, the Taurus Millennium line is actually pretty decent. I've said in the past I wouldn't recommend it as an "only" gun because Taurus's customer service is TERRIBLY slow, and I still stand by that. That being said, the one I owned (and sold to my father-in-law on the cheap) shot fine and he really likes it. They aren't a high end piece by any standard, but regardless of Taurus's checkered reputation that line has proven to be a winner in the budget handgun realm.
winner? Pretty much the king of the hill now for budget guns. G2s and G3s are going for $200-$250 online. Even with a shipping and transfer thats still an unbelievable value. Lots in the $300-$400 range but taurus is undercutting everyone with the G3. They must be going after the Sccy market share. Pretty smart move. They should put out a simple reliable blowback 32/380 pocket gun around $100-125 and shake up the pocket gun market. Use modern polymer and steel... base it off something like the sw380 baby sigma. Probably wont be long until we see a rough rider, wrangler, sidekick competitor either being that 22 single action are so popular.
Bazoo
Member
I got a buddy that says his gun is good, if it only jams a little. Or his Taurus is a good value cause it has x features. He scatters shots over a target, and if one hits the X he outshot me, even of I have a 2" group.
If he asks me I tell him in my usual blunt fashion. I tell him straight out his gun is junk, if he asks. After a bit he finds whatever it is jams or breaks. I tried to tell him to stop buying junk guns and buy 1-2 600-1000 guns and he'd be better off.
How do you tell someone their car is junk? Point to the ford emblem, "look, they circled the problem for you".
I drive a ford, so i can say that! I also tell folks when we are discussing prayer, that we do believe in prayer....we drive a ford.
If he asks me I tell him in my usual blunt fashion. I tell him straight out his gun is junk, if he asks. After a bit he finds whatever it is jams or breaks. I tried to tell him to stop buying junk guns and buy 1-2 600-1000 guns and he'd be better off.
How do you tell someone their car is junk? Point to the ford emblem, "look, they circled the problem for you".
I drive a ford, so i can say that! I also tell folks when we are discussing prayer, that we do believe in prayer....we drive a ford.
JTHunter
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The most questionable gun in my collection is what used to be called a "Saturday Night Special", a Colt Junior in .25 ACP. It was manufactured in the late 50s but was NiB when I inherited it about 20 years ago. It didn't stay unfired for long and, despite its short barrel, is very accurate at 10-15 yds.
None of my other firearms can really be considered "low quality" except for two because of their age (100+ years) and mechanical problems.
Now I invite your comments on what was the second handgun I bought and its "quality". Please, no comments about its caliber, a .380. This is an Astra Constable that I have had since the mid-70s. It has a fixed barrel, about 3.5" long, and is 7 + 1 single stack magazines. and is still accurate at 25 yds.
None of my other firearms can really be considered "low quality" except for two because of their age (100+ years) and mechanical problems.
Now I invite your comments on what was the second handgun I bought and its "quality". Please, no comments about its caliber, a .380. This is an Astra Constable that I have had since the mid-70s. It has a fixed barrel, about 3.5" long, and is 7 + 1 single stack magazines. and is still accurate at 25 yds.
Airborne Falcon
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Airborne Falcon
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I had two little "Saturday Night Specials" ... literally two of the ones listed in the Congressional Bill that outlawed them. One was a blued Davis Industries 25 ACP and the other was this pretty little chromed Lorcin Industries 32 ACP with white fake mother of pearl grips.
Neither was reliable, no matter what I tried.
I thought long and hard about it. Thought about giving them to a couple of employees, farm hands, of mine at the time. Decided against that.
Thought about selling them on consignment through a local pawnshop buddy of mine ... he has that clientelė. But I couldn't have lived with myself.
I smashed the snot outta both of them with a sledge ... they were literally pot metal, junk. I later found out that my Dad had given $5 for one and $10 for the other back in '61 or '62 he thinks it was. The first two guns he ever bought ... for personal protection, when we were living in Louisville.
He was glad that I destroyed them. He said he could never get them to shoot worth a flip either. One bang followed by a ftf or stove pipe ... they were horrible.
buck460XVR
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^^^ I agree. The emphasis being on "that functions".
^^^ I hafta agree on these two quotes also. Over the years, I have found that sometimes it's best to bite your tongue, or else your tongue bites you. Many times folks that buy these so called "junk" guns don;t know any better. While you think you are being a friend and telling them it's junk, many times they take it as an insult. What is my life or the life of my loved ones worth? For many folks, it's relative to what they can afford. If one can afford the payments on a Land Rover, they can afford a custom 1911 for EDC. For someone that can't afford to put decent tires on the family van, it might come down to a Kel-Tec or a Taurus or nuttin'. Doesn't mean we should look down our noses at them. If we really care we should help them find ammo that will work in their gun and make sure they know how to clear the gun in the chance it may fail when they need it. Odds are, they won't and odds are, if they have practiced with it and have confirmed it is reliable, it will do what they want of it, when needed.
crestoncowboy
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I generally agree and I don't own junk guns. But nobody is buying heritage, mosquitos, anything GSG, etc etc for self defense. There are junk guns,, mostly rimfire or target guns that get a pass in my book.
conversely Some of my least dependable guns are more valuable. Lol. I have some expensive 1911s that won't function reliably with sd ammo. Poor choice for SD. I have a couple sig 220 that won't accept about half of the hollow points. They won't even fit in the magazine. Not a junk gun. But poor choice for SD. My bren 10 was never particularly reliable.
Probably the worst 22 I've ever bought out of the box was my last Smith revolver. And from what I read online is not uncommon at all. . A "junk" Taurus or even a Rohm would have been better had I needed it for anything serious. A 50 dollar j-22 would have fired some...at least. So did I get my 800 bucks worth? The only gun I ever had blow up in my hand was a Colt 1911. Ive shot tens of thousands of rounds through what id call Junk 1911s like RIA, Metro, Taurus, Llama (and Kimber back in the early 00s). Had plenty jam but never blow out. I wouldn't say you get what you pay for in guns. A 500 dollar Glock is the yardstick by which most guns are measured....not a 1500 dollar 1911 or even a 1000 dollar Smith these days.
As far as centerfire, we don't have the trash brands that we had years ago. Taurus and Hi point are about the cheapest guns made and they generally work albeit with terrible ergos, horrible Triggers (never hurt HK though) and mediocre CS.
Years ago I went fishing with probably the most expensive spin cast reel made. The 1276 sli. A 100 dollar reel when a zebco 33 was 20 bucks. I ribbed everyone there over my super awesome reel. Second cast the release button broke off and smashed into the reel.
Years ago I took my new 2002 Raptor sportquad on a big ride. Everyone thought they would be left in my dust. They waited on me at every stop because mine was over heating and id have to shut it down. Oil pump was failing. I still have it and its been great since. But I don't tell people how junky their stuff is. Ive bought too many nice things that broke to do that.
You haven't been upset until you are broke down beside the road in a new 100k dollar car waiting on the dealership while watching Yugos, Festiva and other junk chugging by. Many even beep. Lol
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I have to disagree with Hi Point having bad CS. Personal experience. Bought a Hi Point at a pawn shop, it had a little rattle. Registered it, called them. Sent it, and they gave me a brand new one, plus two mags, all free of charge. That's awesome customer service.
Generally speaking, I don't give a rat's behind what anyone chooses to use or even carry. That's their business. On the other hand I'm happy to let people shoot some of my guns, commonly HK P7, Jericho 941, Colt Python etc. and even some of my custom race guns at the range, compare and let them draw their own conclusions.
Many do, some don't, but that's up to them. I rather mind my own business.
Or if you're really concerned about the person in question, buy him/her a high quality gun as a birthday present. That's a win/win situation for everyone.
Buzznrose
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crestoncowboy
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Most I've heard bad from either of those two was slow service. Not actually bad. I've used neither of them personally. Likely never will. The only company I've personally sent a gun back to was Smith. Three of them. All expensive revolvers too. Wouldn't be so bad if it had been a sorry gun like a 422 or a gun known to give trouble like an early M&P sport . Lol. I don't feel I got what I paid for..... but all three were back in a timely manner and all worked great after.
Guns are not always for shooting someone else. And the huge percentage of people who own guns don't carry them around....legally or illegally. And most people that carry themAgain, what is the purpose of a gun, of a firearm? The answer, the only answer, is a serious answer.[/QUOTE] could not hit anything with them if they had to. And I've seen very few examples of people who used a firearm successfully to protect themselves, and even if they had a cheap one, a huge percentage of the time those guns went "bang"
So again, don't be so overly dramatic....
So again, don't be so overly dramatic....
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kmw1954
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HHmmm, I own both a HK VP9 and a Taurus PT92C. I enjoy and shoot the Taurus much better than the HK. Also own a Witness 45 acp and much prefer shooting it over any make or model 1911, also have a Ruger 380, a Pavona 380 and a S&W EZ380. I hate the Ruger.
If they will talk to you before buying, you might be able to steer them in the right direction. If not, then I really like what @rabid wombat suggests. Take them shooting several times--this will either turn up problems or demonstrate that the gun is reliable--and either way they get experience that a new gun owner needs.
Great advice in this thread.
As Ron White observed" "I had the right to remain silent, but I did not have the ability."
As Ron White observed" "I had the right to remain silent, but I did not have the ability."
crestoncowboy
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Usually in my experience they shoot with me and find a gun they like. Then in the store their pocketbook takes over. Or they get impatient and just pick up something.
I took a couple probably 10 years ago. We shot hundreds of rounds through many guns. Both loved the Beretta 92 even though both are pretty small. Was for a nightstand Gun anyway. I personally carry a Glock. They neither one cared for the Grip so they didn't even shoot a Glock. They go to the store and came back with a Glock. I said what the hell. They said they didn't have a Beretta 92 in stock. Lol.
I let my dad shoot several too when he got his carry permit. We go to the store and he leaves with a Taurus. Bought it without even holding it really. Just because of the price tag. Been a decent gun. Terrible trigger though. But that pocket book determined the purchase and I know the man has money. Lol
I see what you're saying. For a 500$+ gun , you expect it to work out of the box perfectly. That much for a project gun (for lack of better words) is outrageous.
crestoncowboy
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To clarify though. It wasn't 3 of the same gun. 3 completely different guns on 3 occasions. All three came back from Smith working great. Still ridiculous and 2 were glaringly bad. Any QC would have rejected them
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