BLACK-MZ.

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Here’s my two cents as a cowboy action shooter. I’ve been using APP 3F in .38 Special for years. I use a 158 grain bullet with powder up to the base of the bullet, by weight about 11.5 grains.

Alliant Black MZ was made by APP. Only one granulation which is more course than 3F. When Sportsman’s Warehouse was closing it out at $9.99 per pound I picked up a supply. I mostly used it for 12 gauge figuring it would meter better in the MEC bushing compared to the powder measure on my metallic cartridge press.

About a year ago I added a .44-40 rifle to the safe. I decided to use Black MZ to work up a load. I charged cases with the capacity shown on APP’s website but I think it was not quite up to the base of the bullet. When I chronographed that test batch they were a little inconsistent.

An experienced shooter recommended foam caulk backer rod as a filler. I started with his recommended load, which was less than 20 grains, inserted the foam rod and cut it flush with the case mouth, and seated a bullet. When I clocked them they were consistent and the velocity was not much lower than the almost-full loads. It is not a “wimpy cowboy load”; it’s a 200 grain bullet at almost 1000 FPS.

Yes, the Black MZ often clumps in the container. Rumor has it the powder was improperly stored at one point. When I open a new one pound container I insert a wooden paddle to break up the largest clumps, then I pour some into a clear Pyrex measuring cup where it gets more stirring, then through a funnel into my powder measure. It takes just a minute. Happy to do so at the price I paid.
 
alsaqr,

I read that part of your post at least three times...and read it wrong every time. My apologies, Sir!

Dave
 
Amazing. I don't doubt others' experiences with this stuff, but other than some minor clumping easily broken up with a few shakes of the can, I have had none of these problems. I think quite highly of this powder and when I run out I will be looking for APP. Other than possibly excessive smoke production, it works great in my cap guns.
 
clumping up, is it also a common experence with T-7, TRIPPLE -7? I don't see any sites on a problem of clumping of it. has any one used / shot it? just courious?
 
Jon, i think much of the clumping is attributed to storage conditions. Five cans of Black MZ have been stored in our house for a couple years; it has never clumped. A couple cans of Black MZ stored in the tornado shelter have clumped. The 15 year old Pinnacle stored in the tornado shelter has badly clumped, the 3F worse than the 2F. That old Pinnacle powder still goes bang, but with less puissance.
 
alsaqr said:
Jon, i think much of the clumping is attributed to storage conditions. Five cans of Black MZ have been stored in our house for a couple years; it has never clumped. A couple cans of Black MZ stored in the tornado shelter have clumped. The 15 year old Pinnacle stored in the tornado shelter has badly clumped, the 3F worse than the 2F. That old Pinnacle powder still goes bang, but with less puissance.
Click to expand...
who & when was that powder made? it is new to me, never heard of it. what grains does it come in?
 
alsaqr, thank you for the response to my questions. yes it seems that they have gone the way of the DINOSAOURS! APP, 16 yrs. gone. and PINNACLE, also that I haver never seen or heard of. was it a product that was sold in a particular part of the country? any chance some one has a picture of a can of it? just courious.
 
alsaqr, any chance that GOEX, changed the name of PINNACLE, when they bought it and produced it under another name? have you ever had the chance to use it?
 
IMG_20220113_082020980.jpg

I have a mostly full bottle of 3f Pinnacle. It shot good and clean, but had clumped a bit. I stopped using it when it was discontinued. Didn't see the point of sighting in with a product I can't continue to get. Moved on to 777. I haven't looked at this bottle for several years, and I was surprised that it hadn't clumped again but it's in a humidity controlled area. Stuff smells sweet, like molasses. I'll probably just burn it up in shotgun shells, or sprinkle on the garden.
 
TOOT44 said:
alsaqr, any chance that GOEX, changed the name of PINNACLE, when they bought it and produced it under another name? have you ever had the chance to use it?
Click to expand...

Found this in another forum:
* Pinnacle is a heat degraded ascorbic acid based powder as was Clean Shot
* Hodgdon sued Clean Shot Technologies for infringement of their Pyrodex technology
* As a result of the verdict, Clean Shot went out of business and formed a new company, American Pioneer Powder making the same ascorbic acid based powder
* Goex wanted in on substitute powders and contracted with APP to make an ascorbic acid based powder called Pinnacle
* Hodgdon had Pyrodex and in the meantime developed Triple Seven. Hodgdon Powder Company began to ship their new black powder substitute in February, 2002.
* In 2009,Hodgdon purchased Goex and had in their product line, Pyrodex and Triple Seven. Pinnacle was deemed to be a low revenue product and was phased out
* In addition, Hodgdon was aware that Pinnacle powder was nothing more than the same minor modification formulation of the old Clean Shot ascorbic acid based powder

Here is a recap of the law suit between Hodgdon and Clean Shot:
November 2001, Shawnee Mission, Kansas Hodgdon Powder Company announces that Clean Shot Technologies, Inc. was shot down by a jury verdict in a patent infringement lawsuit filed by Hodgdon.

A Federal Court jury in West Palm Beach Florida on Monday November 5, 2001 unanimously handed down a verdict in favor of Hodgdon Powder Company, Inc. and against Clean Shot Technologies, and awarded Hodgdon damages in the sum of $1,014,660.

The jury rejected all of Clean Shot's claims that the Hodgdon patent was not valid, including evidence of products claimed to have been made by the long defunct Golden Powder Company. The jury unanimously found that Clean Shot had willfully infringed Hodgdon's Pyrodex Pellet patent by copying and selling pelletized powder known as "Quick Shots". An injunction prohibiting further production and sale of "Quick Shots" was issued November 7, 2001.
 
TOOT44 said:
alsaqr, any chance that GOEX, changed the name of PINNACLE, when they bought it and produced it under another name? have you ever had the chance to use it?
Click to expand...

i shot about 20 pounds of Goex Pinnacle 2F and 3F. Still have several cans.

Some history:

The predecessor of APP manufactured a pellet that Hodgdon claimed violated their Pyrodex pellet patent. Hodgdon was successful in suing the predecessor of APP into bankruptcy.

1. Goex Pinnacle was produced by APP.

2. Pinnacle went away after Hodgdon bought GOEX.

3. Then Alliant began selling APP produced Black MZ.

4. APP continues to sell APP and Jim Shockey Gold powder.

5. APP manufactures the relatively new Shooters World Multi Purpose Black in granular and pellet form: I recently received a couple cans of that powder.

6. The Pyrodex patent expired. APP now manufactures a pellet with hole through the center.

If Clean Shot had a good patent lawyer they would have won the patent infringement case. Pellet powder had been previously patented in the 1890s.
 
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It's a shame that this stuff has such a tortured past. I like it very well and will continue shooting it as long as it is available. Don't get me wrong, I still like and shoot real black. But ascorbic based subs are clean, easy to clean up, provide more than enough power for my needs, and seem to be plenty accurate for what I do. At this point it is shoot any powder you can lay your hands on, I suppose.
 
alsaqr said:
i shot about 20 pounds of Goex Pinnacle 2F and 3F. Still have several cans.

Some history:

The predecessor of APP manufactured a pellet that Hodgdon claimed violated their Pyrodex pellet patent. Hodgdon was successful in suing the predecessor of APP into bankruptcy.

1. Goex Pinnacle was produced by APP.

2. Pinnacle went away after Hodgdon bought GOEX.

3. Then Alliant began selling APP produced Black MZ.

4. APP continues to sell APP and Jim Shockey Gold powder.

5. APP manufactures the relatively new Shooters World Multi Purpose Black in granular and pellet form: I recently received a couple cans of that powder.

6. The Pyrodex patent expired. APP now manufactures a pellet with hole through the center.

If Clean Shot had a good patent lawyer they would have won the patent infringement case. Pellet powder had been previously patented in the 1890s.
Click to expand...
they come with a PIPE CLEANER in each box of pellets. it is for sticking into the holes to get them out of the box with out breaking them, as they are fragile.
 
brewer12345 said:
It's a shame that this stuff has such a tortured past. I like it very well and will continue shooting it as long as it is available. Don't get me wrong, I still like and shoot real black. But ascorbic based subs are clean, easy to clean up, provide more than enough power for my needs, and seem to be plenty accurate for what I do. At this point it is shoot any powder you can lay your hands on, I suppose.
Click to expand...
notice when you pour the cleaning water out of your barrel with sibs, except PYRODEX, that it runs / comes out brown instead of black as BP, does. and cleans up quicker than most.
 
noelf2 said:
Found this in another forum:
* Pinnacle is a heat degraded ascorbic acid based powder as was Clean Shot
* Hodgdon sued Clean Shot Technologies for infringement of their Pyrodex technology
* As a result of the verdict, Clean Shot went out of business and formed a new company, American Pioneer Powder making the same ascorbic acid based powder
* Goex wanted in on substitute powders and contracted with APP to make an ascorbic acid based powder called Pinnacle
* Hodgdon had Pyrodex and in the meantime developed Triple Seven. Hodgdon Powder Company began to ship their new black powder substitute in February, 2002.
* In 2009,Hodgdon purchased Goex and had in their product line, Pyrodex and Triple Seven. Pinnacle was deemed to be a low revenue product and was phased out
* In addition, Hodgdon was aware that Pinnacle powder was nothing more than the same minor modification formulation of the old Clean Shot ascorbic acid based powder

Here is a recap of the law suit between Hodgdon and Clean Shot:
November 2001, Shawnee Mission, Kansas Hodgdon Powder Company announces that Clean Shot Technologies, Inc. was shot down by a jury verdict in a patent infringement lawsuit filed by Hodgdon.

A Federal Court jury in West Palm Beach Florida on Monday November 5, 2001 unanimously handed down a verdict in favor of Hodgdon Powder Company, Inc. and against Clean Shot Technologies, and awarded Hodgdon damages in the sum of $1,014,660.

The jury rejected all of Clean Shot's claims that the Hodgdon patent was not valid, including evidence of products claimed to have been made by the long defunct Golden Powder Company. The jury unanimously found that Clean Shot had willfully infringed Hodgdon's Pyrodex Pellet patent by copying and selling pelletized powder known as "Quick Shots". An injunction prohibiting further production and sale of "Quick Shots" was issued November 7, 2001.
Click to expand...
thank you so much for the post for the history of them.
 
TOOT44,

What state do you reside in? If you're in or near Missouri I'll give you a can of Black MZ.
I bought 8 to 10 cans of it from Sportsman's Warehouse a few years ago.

I like to use a powder flask to load my C&B revolvers. Black MZ does not come out of a powder flask very well.
I'll eventually use it to load BP cartridges.
 
drobs, thank you for the gesture. I am afraid I an a bit too far, in R.I. I would like to get a can of it. oh well. thank you for the info you provided about using it in a powder flask. TOOT44.
 
You know, it's kinda funny, I never had problems getting Black MZ out of my flasks but have had T7 clog the gate on my Hawksley flasks to the point of jamming them open.
 
I guess that the SUB'S all react to atmosphere in different ways? it seems to bear that out, from the posts? what say you?
 
Hello guys,

Black MZ was introduced in 2011, a Black Powder Substitute labeled and sold by the Alliant Powder Company,
that was until an explosion at the gunpowder manufacturing facility in Whitewater, CO. on June 25th, 2016
and the supply was depleted. Now it has been discontinued.

Shooters World has a product called “Multi-Purpose Black”. This is supposed to be the same as Black MZ
but in a 3F variant, many shooters claim it more like a 2-1/2F. It is manufactured by American Pioneer Powder
at the Whitewater, CO facility. Load Data listed is an exact copy of the American Pioneer Powder’s load data.

AntiqueSledMan.
 
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