357 load development and casual observations

I was just looking there earlier this week. When did those show up? Those are the same price as the cast bullets I was going to try. What would you run them with powder wise? I have a decent selection of pistol powders available thanks to my mistaken low opinion of CFE P. CFE P, HS-6, W232, and 2400 should give a good chance for a good load somewhere. Those smiley ones are cool. They’re all an odd weight though.
 
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DMW1116 said:
I was just looking there earlier this week. When did those show up? Those are the same price as the cast bullets I was going to try. What would you run them with powder wise? I have a decent selection of pistol powders available thanks to my mistaken low opinion of CFE P. CFE P, HS-6, W232, and 2400 should give a good chance for a good load somewhere. Those smiley ones are cool. They’re all an odd weight though.
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My only issue is there is no canalure. Really kills my use for them as the largest volume I use is in a marlin lever. A hs-6 load sounds promising
 
Hodgdens book velocities with 125 grain bullets are impressive but they used a 10” barrel. Who has that if not in a rifle?
 
DMW1116 said:
Hodgdens book velocities with 125 grain bullets are impressive but they used a 10” barrel. Who has that if not in a rifle?
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Um, anybody that has a Thompson Contender single shot. A lot of us had them for IHMSA competition years ago. I should have kept mine, even after our club quit holding competitions.
Also note that Alliant also uses a 10” barrel for their .357 Magnum loading data. Guess they can’t afford the far more reasonable 4” vented test barrel for their universal receiver.
 
2ndtimer said:
Um, anybody that has a Thompson Contender single shot. A lot of us had them for IHMSA competition years ago. I should have kept mine, even after our club quit holding competitions.
Also note that Alliant also uses a 10” barrel for their .357 Magnum loading data. Guess they can’t afford the far more reasonable 4” vented test barrel for their universal receiver.
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It seems like the testers arent shooters. It's a person with a degree doing a job with no interest in the sport.
 
Shivahasagun said:
I finally got to test my Ramshot Enforcer .357 mag load with 13.9 grs.

CCI SPP OAL 1.573 in 158 gr XTP JHP Colt King Cobra new model 3 inch barrel.

Average was 1058 fps with an ES of 57 fps. Meh. Was hoping for 1075-1100 fps but this is it.

But honestly recoil was heavy enough that it's starting to slow down my split times and I caught myself doing a flinch resulting in a less-accurate shot now and then.

Muzzle blast was not extreme and cases extracted just fine.

It does make me wonder what a 125 gr XTP would be like at about 1150 fps.

I also tested some .357 mag case reloads using 700X, CCI SPP, OAL 1.57 in, 158 gr #1 Ranger Missouri RNFP (Hard for this light load at 18 BRN) and Lee .5 CC dipper. Just heaping everything I could into and onto the dipper and not even worrying about flakes on the neck. This results in 3.8 grs and through the same Colt 3 inch gave me an average of 781 fps and an ES of 55 fps. They actually felt a bit warm and the velocity was a little less than I felt it was going to be.

It is a very simple and fun way to load practice ammo.
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My Lyman manual has a max load for 158 xtp, Enforcer, at 14.2. The test barrel they used was a 4 inch. They also used a CCI 550... I use the CCI 500. I just loaded 5 each from 13.3 thru 14.2 to run through my Redhawk 5.5". If it gets too hot I will cut the last 2 groups short, but I don't anticipate it being too hot. I normally don't load near max for my SWs or my SP101 but we'll see how it goes with the Redhawk. It handles the hottest UW, DT, Grizzly and BB without issue. I will not do this in a timely manner though but I will post results eventually. lol
 
2ndtimer said:
Um, anybody that has a Thompson Contender single shot. A lot of us had them for IHMSA competition years ago. I should have kept mine, even after our club quit holding competitions.
Also note that Alliant also uses a 10” barrel for their .357 Magnum loading data. Guess they can’t afford the far more reasonable 4” vented test barrel for their universal receiver.
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Good point. The Lyman manual I have also uses a 4” barrel. I think the might be a little on the optimistic side but still.
 
armydog said:
My Lyman manual has a max load for 158 xtp, Enforcer, at 14.2. The test barrel they used was a 4 inch. They also used a CCI 550... I use the CCI 500. I just loaded 5 each from 13.3 thru 14.2 to run through my Redhawk 5.5". If it gets too hot I will cut the last 2 groups short, but I don't anticipate it being too hot. I normally don't load near max for my SWs or my SP101 but we'll see how it goes with the Redhawk. It handles the hottest UW, DT, Grizzly and BB without issue. I will not do this in a timely manner though but I will post results eventually. lol
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Thanks.

I was thinking of using CCI 550's in place of the 500's for a better burn with the Enforcer but wasn't sure if that would be safe.

Sounds like it would be and I have and need an excuse to use the 550's.

Should I back off from the 13.9 grs and test a few at say, 13.7?
 
Shivahasagun said:
Thanks.

I was thinking of using CCI 550's in place of the 500's for a better burn with the Enforcer but wasn't sure if that would be safe.

Sounds like it would be and I have and need an excuse to use the 550's.

Should I back off from the 13.9 grs and test a few at say, 13.7?
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Western Powders recommends a WSPM primer for all of their .357Magnum loads. If your initial development was with a standard primer, then yes you should switch to the recommended magnum primer and start at the minimum load data. That’s SOP for whenever a major component change is made.
 
Shivahasagun said:
Thanks.

I was thinking of using CCI 550's in place of the 500's for a better burn with the Enforcer but wasn't sure if that would be safe.

Sounds like it would be and I have and need an excuse to use the 550's.

Should I back off from the 13.9 grs and test a few at say, 13.7?
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I've used GM200M using H110 but when I use 357 with Blue Dot, Power Pistol and Enforcer I use the CCI500. I read a while back from ramshot that they recommend magnum primers for sure if the rifle load is 70 grains and above and 20 grains above for pistol when it comes to spherical powders. I only have about 1800 GM200M left and I'm not about to buy any so I'm not even using the H110 with 357 right now. I have heard of people using standard primers with H110 and not having issues but I'll stick to magnums with H110.

As far as backing off to 13.7, you just need to evaluate each group/cases as you go/escalate, regardless of what primer you have. You can make a row for each .1 increase, but you don't have to fire them. I have had plenty of rows in my boxes that I decided I reached the max and didn't fire the rest.
 
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Alright! I scored some Federal GM100M! (Gold Match standard small pistol primer)

I've already loaded Ramshot Enforcer and 158 gr XTP JHP's in new brass. 6 at 13.7 grs, 24 at 13.9 grs. I'll report back.

I've got some 125 gr XTP JHP's coming to try out with Enforcer, too.
 
Enforcer and HS-6 seem very similar based on data from Hodgdens web site. They appear to be geared toward the lighter bullets in 357 Magnum. HS-6 was quite accurate for me with 125 grain XTP bullets. As with 2400, the best accuracy was at the maximum charge I was willing to try, though still shy of the maximum data provided by Hodgden. Enforcer will likely work pretty well for you.
 
DMW1116 said:
Enforcer and HS-6 seem very similar based on data from Hodgdens web site. They appear to be geared toward the lighter bullets in 357 Magnum. HS-6 was quite accurate for me with 125 grain XTP bullets. As with 2400, the best accuracy was at the maximum charge I was willing to try, though still shy of the maximum data provided by Hodgden. Enforcer will likely work pretty well for you.
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2400 seems very linear in pressure and behaves well. I dont know what max in your book is but I've tested to 14 grains with a lead 158. You definitely know it's a magnum.
 
I went to 14.1 grains and a 158 gr XTP. That’s the load that made me check to see if I still had hair on the backs of my hands. Lyman max is 14.9?!?!?! Hornady is 14.3.
 
DMW1116 said:
HS-6 seems to ramp up fast. I had some flattening on the max load I tried but no more than the factory loads.
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HS-6 is much faster than Accurate 4100/Ramshot Enforcer or 2400. Where that burn speed helps is with a shorter barrel but, as you noticed, it expends itself more quickly. What is your chronograph telling you? In a longer barrel in a higher-pressure-range load, HS-6 is done when No. 9, Lil' Gun, 4100/Enforcer and 2400 are just getting started. Yes, all powders burn in the chamber, not in the barrel but a longer barrel with a slower powder will be able to keep the bullet accelerating as long as there is gas being made while a faster powder will stop making gas before the bullet leaves the barrel and the bullet will/can start to decelerate. It's a great balancing act. :)
 
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Ok, Federal primers worked great. Better looking dents than CCI's.

3 inch King Cobra, 158 gr XTP.

The 13.7 of Enforcer didnt read well, but ranged from 996-1049 fps.

The 13.9 gr of Enforcer gave me an average of 1045 fps. ES of 47 fps and SD of 17 fps.

Primers perhaps looked slightly flattened but no other issues. Smooth ejection and fine accuracy.
 
Shivahasagun said:
Ok, Federal primers worked great. Better looking dents than CCI's.

3 inch King Cobra, 158 gr XTP.

The 13.7 of Enforcer didnt read well, but ranged from 996-1049 fps.

The 13.9 gr of Enforcer gave me an average of 1045 fps. ES of 47 fps and SD of 17 fps.

Primers perhaps looked slightly flattened but no other issues. Smooth ejection and fine accuracy.
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Federal has worked well in both my carbine and pistol. I havent tried enforcer or shooter's world heavy pistol but their both on the list.
 
AJC1 said:
Federal has worked well in both my carbine and pistol. I havent tried enforcer or shooter's world heavy pistol but their both on the list.
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Enforcer and Accurate 4100 are the same powders if it helps. I’ve seen both available recently.
 
AJC1 said:
Federal has worked well in both my carbine and pistol. I havent tried enforcer or shooter's world heavy pistol but their both on the list.
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I tried some SW Heavy Pistol last year a little bit. You may find this interesting or useful.

From my Henry H012GM (20" barrel .357 MAG), Star brass, Federal primers (SP or SPM noted below), trim was 1.28" and bullets seated to their cannelure, for XTP that put OAL at around 1.58" but on the plated RNFP it was shorter, don't recall the overall though. Full roll crimp. I was only shooting over the chrono and not at targets at the same time at this point so no idea on group sizes.

This was June in the Phoenix area so temps were in the mid 90's in the shade. This needs a lot more testing but from what I found here, Heavy Pistol gets more velocity from magnum primers, in most cases, but not much and it appears that also throws the variance way up and down making them less consistent. The lowest standard deviations and spreads were found near the max load charges with standard small pistol primers.

Last note on the powder charge levels: I used the data from the interactive manual on Shooter's World's website. There they listed 12.1gr as the max for 158gr JHPs of all brands as I recall. I know on the bottle it shows data as 13.(something) as the max for 158gr JHP (I think it's a Speer) but I never did contact them to ask them about it and didn't want to push it. It may very well be that these could go to higher charges and get tighter numbers.

HNDY XTP- 158 GR- 5 round sets- FED SP primer
10.0gr- ~1077 FPS, SD: 47.76, ES: 144
10.6gr- ~1208 FPS, SD: 45.24, ES: 109
11.1gr- ~1173 FPS, SD: 53.22, ES: 115
11.6gr- ~1302 FPS, SD: 13.67, ES: 35
12.1gr- ~1364 FPS, SD: 18.47, ES: 45

HNDY XTP- 158 GR- 5 round sets- FED SPM primer
11.1gr- ~1218 FPS, SD: 31.52, ES: 80
11.6gr- ~1340 FPS, SD: 40.21, ES: 98
12.1gr- ~1386 FPS, SD: 63.50, ES: 133

EVERGLADES RNFP #2 (PLATED)- 158 GR- 5 round sets- FED SP primer
10.0gr- ~966 FPS, SD: 55.84, ES: 140
10.6gr- ~1094 FPS, SD: 38.6, ES: 106
11.1gr- ~1181 FPS, SD: 23.27, ES: 63
11.6gr- 1239 FPS, SD: 61.98, ES: 161
12.1gr- 1323 FPS, SD: 14.35, ES: 32

EVERGLADES RNFP #2 (PLATED)- 158 GR- 5 round sets- FED SPM primer
11.6gr- ~1305 FPS, SD: 53.58, ES: 113
12.1gr- ~1407 FPS, SD: 67.71, ES: 186
 
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Bearded Phil said:
I tried some SW Heavy Pistol last year a little bit. You may find this interesting or useful.

From my Henry H012GM (20" barrel .357 MAG), Star brass, Federal primers (SP or SPM noted below), trim was 1.28" and bullets seated to their cannelure, for XTP that put OAL at around 1.58" but on the plated RNFP it was shorter, don't recall the overall though. Full roll crimp. I was only shooting over the chrono and not at targets at the same time at this point so no idea on group sizes.

This was June in the Phoenix area so temps were in the mid 90's in the shade. This needs a lot more testing but from what I found here, Heavy Pistol gets more velocity from magnum primers, in most cases, but not much and it appears that also throws the variance way up and down making them less consistent. The lowest standard deviations and spreads were found near the max load charges with standard small pistol primers.

Last note on the powder charge levels: I used the data from the interactive manual on Shooter's World's website. There they listed 12.1gr as the max for 158gr JHPs of all brands as I recall. I know on the bottle it shows data as 13.(something) as the max for 158gr JHP (I think it's a Speer) but I never did contact them to ask them about it and didn't want to push it. It may very well be that these could go to higher charges and get tighter numbers.

HNDY XTP- 158 GR- 5 round sets- FED SP primer
10.0gr- ~1077 FPS, SD: 47.76, ES: 144
10.6gr- ~1208 FPS, SD: 45.24, ES: 109
11.1gr- ~1173 FPS, SD: 53.22, ES: 115
11.6gr- ~1302 FPS, SD: 13.67, ES: 35
12.1gr- ~1364 FPS, SD: 18.47, ES: 45

HNDY XTP- 158 GR- 5 round sets- FED SPM primer
11.1gr- ~1218 FPS, SD: 31.52, ES: 80
11.6gr- ~1340 FPS, SD: 40.21, ES: 98
12.1gr- ~1386 FPS, SD: 63.50, ES: 133

EVERGLADES RNFP #2 (PLATED)- 158 GR- 5 round sets- FED SP primer
10.0gr- ~966 FPS, SD: 55.84, ES: 140
10.6gr- ~1094 FPS, SD: 38.6, ES: 106
11.1gr- ~1181 FPS, SD: 23.27, ES: 63
11.6gr- 1239 FPS, SD: 61.98, ES: 161
12.1gr- 1323 FPS, SD: 14.35, ES: 32

EVERGLADES RNFP #2 (PLATED)- 158 GR- 5 round sets- FED SPM primer
11.6gr- ~1305 FPS, SD: 53.58, ES: 113
12.1gr- ~1407 FPS, SD: 67.71, ES: 186
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I might be way off but those seem like 6" pistol speeds with the xtp and I would expect closer to 2000fps out of a 20" carbine. Were you satisfied with that load?
 
AJC1 said:
I might be way off but those seem like 6" pistol speeds with the xtp and I would expect closer to 2000fps out of a 20" carbine. Were you satisfied with that load?
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Not really, haha. That's why I set it down and went back to using the 800X that I had/have. I still have most of 2 lbs of the Heavy Pistol and will probably return to it to see if I still have the same results now that I'm more versed in handloading. I don't think that I was doing anything wrong back then that would be corrected now but you never know.

Like you with 2400, though, my interested is tied up with IMR 4227 right now which I still have to get out and test. I had plans to go out last Sunday but my plans shifted and ended up not going out. (Short story: my brother had some passes to the WMPO and we went Saturday when I was going to do weekend chores so that shifted to Sunday. Saw live pro golf for the first time though and a hole-in-one at the 16th green, my brother was peeing and missed it, he was salty, haha. He's the one that actually likes golf.)

Side note: 800X was the only powder locally that I found data for with .357 when I started loading last year so I bought 2 lbs from my LGS. I still have 1-1/3 Lbs left. I found a decent load at 8.6gr with it, around 1488 FPS 158gr XTP but I'm torn between using up the rest or saving it. I know it won't last forever but with 800x being discontinued I figure maybe I can make a good trade with it to someone who REALLY wants some more or save it and it maybe it will become a collector piece some day.
 
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