Tactics And A Perspective On OC

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Kleanbore, speaking of not tailgating, in the past couple of months, there have been some "aggressive drivers" that make me question their sanity.
These both happened on s "3 lane" state route with the center lane being a turn lane for BOTH sides. In the first case, a "non-caucasian" female used that center lane to pass at least 2, possibly three, vehicles and then cut in front of me. When she got stopped at the next stoplight, my dashcam got a beautiful shot of her vehicle and plates. When the county sheriff's office was contacted, they weren't interested even though there was the video. o_O
The second incident was as I was turning right into my subdivision on this same road and less than 150 yds. west of the first incident. The bad things about this incident were that 1) it was in a school zone; 2) it was in an intersection and Illinois law prohibits passing in an intersection; and 3) it was at the top of a hill and that driver passed without looking or knowing (or caring) that a westbound car might have been waiting to turn left into that same subdivision. I also believe that he not only passed me but the car behind me as well. So he couldn't have had a clear view of the road ahead as he was coming up the steep side of that hill.
We have tried to get a stoplight put on our intersection as we only have 75-100 feet of visibility to the left (east) because of that hill. But, being a "state controlled route", the county claims they can do nothing.
 
JTHunter…it sounds that self-defense and/or use of firearms was unlikely to occur in those scenarios.
Thank goodness for small blessings!
 
Mikhail Weiss said:
Mistake acknowledged, lessons learned, matters discussed, so I’ll only add this:

...I just thought about exchanging some words and that would be that…​

A-holes are impervious to reason. Exchanging words never works.
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You are absolutely right about that.

Thanks to most everyone on the replies. Its given me a lot to ponder on.
 
We are in a recreation area that includes a state park with that said you at some point will encounter different personality types. Caution thus restraint of interaction with individual's you are not knowledgeable of is advisable.
 
I totally agree, @Hangingrock. I do love hiking deep into the woods with all my heart.
At the same time, I have met my fair share of really bizarre people away from civilization!
 
Wow, talk about a situation getting out of control fast. One second a single passive aggressive act of not using your turn signals and the next, being 100% ready to shoot them if they flinch. Glad you avoided that.

There certainly is a lesson to be learned.
 
Wow. Not to pile on but there were a lot of avoidable mistakes made here and the first mistake is with taking a stubborn or prideful position.

1) You should have just pulled over and let the driver pass you. He would have probably truly appreciated your courteous nature. You didn't exhibit any of that though.

2) You then refused to give a signal that you were turning which nearly resulted in a wreck. That's all on you and indeed an A-Hole act.

People who live in the country or very rural areas typically show a lot of courtesy toward one another. It's just a different frame of mind vs the city. But you showed none of that. It has to start with someone.

Lastly, I'll end with this as I stated in another thread. I'm a strong 2A supporter but training and a proper frame of mind is important for ccw consideration. If you are going to carry you better learn to always put pride behind and to always use judgement. Because "I was in a bad mood" is not an excuse and it raises a red flag in my book. If you are not always capable of exercising good judgement or controlling your emotions after having had a bad day; then you may desire not to ccw at that time or at all. Otherwise, you need to recognize this and work on it.

Take care,
Ralph
 
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Ralph III said:
1) You should have just pulled over and let the driver pass you. He would have probably truly appreciated your courteous nature. You didn't exhibit any of that though.
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1) Not likely.

2) At least where I live, there's not much of anywhere to do this " pulling over" you people keep talking about.

None of this obviates the fact that if someone is driving too slow for your taste, you can not ride their bumper and just wait for a safe opportunity to pass.
 
Ralph III said:
1) You should have just pulled over and let the driver pass you. He would have probably truly appreciated your courteous nature. You didn't exhibit any of that though.

2) You then refused to give a signal that you were turning which nearly resulted in a wreck. That's all on you and indeed an A-Hole act.
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1. Do you think there is a shoulder to pull over everywhere? Pulling over in some areas might cause more of a problem. You go off in the dirt where I live you'll sink or get flat tires... I guess that is what some people will learn if they try the whole pulling over thing once or twice.

2. So if some lady in front of me is flailing her phone around in her right hand for miles and then turns without signaling is she really giving me license to be pissed off? Is she really the cause of a problem if I rear end her? That answer is No on both counts. I'm the one behind her so I am the one in control.
 
bdickens said:
1) Not likely.

2) At least where I live, there's not much of anywhere to do this " pulling over" you people keep talking about.

None of this obviates the fact that if someone is driving too slow for your taste, you can not ride their bumper and just wait for a safe opportunity to pass.
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Good grief bdickens! Then you'll just find yourself in the same situation that the OP did which was nearly causing a wreck and nearly being involved with a road rage incident involving firearms! All of which could have easily been avoided. But hey, if you want me to hold your hand and walk you through this, then so be it.

If the OP couldn't pull over, due to very winding mountainous roads, he could have just slowed down and then waved the driver around him at some point. I've done a lifetime of driving through country and mountain roads and I guarantee you that I could have found a moment to allow him to come around me if needed.

I see this scenario play out every time I drive mountainous and country roads. Locals tend to drive a lot faster on these roads because they are accustomed to them whereas visitors are not. So the locals tend to drive closely at times in an attempt to speed the visitors up a little or in encouraging them to pull off. Other than that everything tends to remain quite cordial. When the opportunity arises they simply drive around them. It doesn't have to play out like it did with the OP.

Most likely, the OP got pissed that the other driver was tailgating him and then he exacerbated the situation by not allowing an opportunity for the other driver to come around him. The OP then nearly caused the other driver to wreck when he did attempt to come around him because he purposefully didn't give his turn signal. Yes, the other guy should not have been tailgating but what the OP did was egregious in my book. He could have easily de-escalated the situation but he instead added to it, IMHO.

Ralph
 
quote by armydog "Do you think there is a shoulder to pull over everywhere? Pulling over in some areas might cause more of a problem. You go off in the dirt where I live you'll sink or get flat tires..."
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You can read my last reply to bdickens. Otherwise, I doubt you've logged more miles on mountain and country roads than I have. There is always an opportunity to allow folks to come around you and remaining cordial should always be the goal, especially in this day and age. As a law abiding citizen, gun owner and ccw you should in fact practice even greater patience than other folks.

quote by armydog "So if some lady in front of me is flailing her phone around in her right hand for miles and then turns without signaling is she really giving me license to be pissed off? Is she really the cause of a problem if I rear end her?..."
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Your question and example is completely irrelevant as posed. But the answer is of course a resounding, "No"!

Now let me ask you this.

So if a lady is tailgating you and obviously desiring to get around you, does this give you the right to get pissed off by not allowing her to come around you. Then as she attempts to come around you; you then run her off the road because you were pissed and purposefully chose not to give a turn signal warning her that you were turning. Is that ok and would you be ok with someone doing that to your wife or daughter?

No, of course not and this is the point I am making. Both drivers were at fault here but the OP exacerbated the situation when he could have de-escalated the situation. He chose not to though.

Ralph
 
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This has been touched on, but I do wonder if open carry actually prevented further violence. Without the sure knowledge that either party was armed, it could more easily have escalated into pushing, shoving, fists, wrestling, and finally desperation and gunfire.

I am not actually an open carry advocate, but Heinlein had at least something of a point.
 
.38 Special said:
This has been touched on, but I do wonder if open carry actually prevented further violence. Without the sure knowledge that either party was armed, it could more easily have escalated into pushing, shoving, fists, wrestling, and finally desperation and gunfire.

I am not actually an open carry advocate, but Heinlein had at least something of a point.
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When someone has a pistol openly displayed in a holster on the hip, there's certainly no doubt about the stakes.
 
Ralph says it well.

On the old two lane highways of Colorado, Kentucky, Missouri, and West Virginia, on the winding roads in southern Illinois farm country, on old Mississippi farm roads when the cotton is high, on the road up Pile's Peak, etc, people were faced with slow drivers all the time, with no shoulders onto which to pull. Farmall tractors pulling disc plows from one field to another, heavily loaded logging trucks, a camper trailer pulled by a car driven by a flat-lander afraid of mountains, the horse-drawn conveyances of some religious factions, and farm tractors pulling trailers piled high with hay bales or cotton bales, have all made it necessary for people to learn how to accommodate the needs of others on the road.

And without road rage or dangerous behavior.

And without open carry to enforce good manners.
 
Ralph III said:
Good grief bdickens! Then you'll just find yourself in the same situation that the OP did which was nearly causing a wreck and nearly being involved with a road rage incident involving firearms! All of which could have easily been avoided. But hey, if you want me to hold your hand and walk you through this, then so be it.

If the OP couldn't pull over, due to very winding mountainous roads, he could have just slowed down and then waved the driver around him at some point. I've done a lifetime of driving through country and mountain roads and I guarantee you that I could have found a moment to allow him to come around me if needed.

I see this scenario play out every time I drive mountainous and country roads. Locals tend to drive a lot faster on these roads because they are accustomed to them whereas visitors are not. So the locals tend to drive closely at times in an attempt to speed the visitors up a little or in encouraging them to pull off. Other than that everything tends to remain quite cordial. When the opportunity arises they simply drive around them. It doesn't have to play out like it did with the OP.

Most likely, the OP got pissed that the other driver was tailgating him and then he exacerbated the situation by not allowing an opportunity for the other driver to come around him. The OP then nearly caused the other driver to wreck when he did attempt to come around him because he purposefully didn't give his turn signal. Yes, the other guy should not have been tailgating but what the OP did was egregious in my book. He could have easily de-escalated the situation but he instead added to it, IMHO.

Ralph
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Good grief, Ralph III. You come down here and try pulling off the road to let someone pass. Try it. Make sure your cell phone is charged and you have the number of a good wrecker service handy.

If you want me to hold your hand and walk you through this, then so be it. Unless the traffic laws are very different where you live, speeding is against the law. So is tailgating. So is passing someone on the left who is turning left. Or passing at all where it is not safe to do so.

The a-hole tailgating the OP is the one who nearly caused the wreck. If he had been obeying the law and following at a safe distance then he would have had plenty of time to slow down safely and allow the OP to turn - signal or not.

Another clue you obviously ain't from around here: Nobody uses their turn signals. Anyone with 3 functioning brain cells down here has figured this out and adjusts accordingly.

When the person in front of you slows down, you just assume he is going to turn. Or that there is an animal in or about to be in the road. That is, if you have a lick of sense. Another excellent reason to keep a safe distance.

Turn signals are useless anyway with road-raging a-holes. More than once, one of these jackwagons has been tailgating me - while I have been driving at.. uh... a semi-legal speed - and then passed me on the left when I slowed down to turn left. WITH MY TURN SIGNAL ON!
 
bdickens said:
Good grief, Ralph III. You come down here and try pulling off the road to let someone pass. Try it
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Ralph did not suggest doing that.

bdickens said:
speeding is against the law. So is tailgating. So is passing someone on the left who is turning left. Or passing at all where it is not safe to do so.
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Yes.

bdickens said:
The a-hole tailgating the OP is the one who nearly caused the wreck. If he had been obeying the law and following at a safe distance then he would have had plenty of time to slow down safely and allow the OP to turn - signal or not.
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Okay. That would not relieve the OP of liability in the event of an accident wile turning.

BTW, Texas code requires the use of signal lamps or hand signals before turning.

None of this has a thing to so with ST&T scope.
 
Ralph III said:
You can read my last reply to bdickens. Otherwise, I doubt you've logged more miles on mountain and country roads than I have. There is always an opportunity to allow folks to come around you and remaining cordial should always be the goal, especially in this day and age. As a law abiding citizen, gun owner and ccw you should in fact practice even greater patience than other folks.


Your question and example is completely irrelevant as posed. But the answer is of course a resounding, "No"!

Now let me ask you this.

So if a lady is tailgating you and obviously desiring to get around you, does this give you the right to get pissed off by not allowing her to come around you. Then as she attempts to come around you; you then run her off the road because you were pissed and purposefully chose not to give a turn signal warning her that you were turning. Is that ok and would you be ok with someone doing that to your wife or daughter?

No, of course not and this is the point I am making. Both drivers were at fault here but the OP exacerbated the situation because he could have de-escalated the situation. He chose not to though.

Ralph
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I didn't know you being King of the Mountain had anything to do with this, but so be it. I describe a situation on roads where there is not a shoulder to pull off on and you talk about mighty mountain roads where there is always a place to pull over. Regardless of scenario, the opportunity you will always have is to keep your bearing regardless of what happens... a point I think the OP already noted way back in this thread.

This is the situation that people need to take away out there on the road, mountain or flat land. Everyone out there is allowed to do everything wrong. Everyone out there is allowed to piss you off. You are not allowed to respond in an aggressive manner. And that still might not be enough to keep you out of trouble. That is the way it has been for me in the states and in many South American countries, Middle East countries and other mountainous countries that make NYC cab drivers seem tranquil.

You ever drive behind someone slow in the mountains that had dozens of opportunities to pull over or even speed up a bit? Seems like you might have had this happen with all your time in the mountains. I know I have. You think what I think about what they think matters one bit? It doesn't. They're allowed to just keep at their pace. I'm allowed to get a lot of distance between us. I can't control what people do behind me though... whatever they do is on them.
 
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Any two-lane road has the width to allow for the slower drive to slow down even more (for safety), and wave the other driver around. The only place this is not possible is on tight winding single lane dirt roads that are infrequently travelled. These roads almost always have passing spots when they are not clearly one-way affairs. Allowing a driver behind you to pass is almost always an option.

Is it an obligation to do so? No. Is common courtesy? In some places, but not in others. Is it the easiest way to rid yourself of an aggressive tailgater? Yes.
 
The OP mentioned in the first few sentences this was "out in the sticks" and began within a quarter-mile of his home. In my experience in rural America…people tend to know each other. They know that is your vehicle. They also know you are turning into your driveway just ahead. They don't seethe gripping the steering wheel.

If I am driving the speed limit within spitting distance of my home and some nutjob comes racing-up to my bumper on a country lane…that is not neighborly. They are total strangers. I sure as heck am not going to HALT my vehicle (tactically unsound) plus simultaneously risk going axle-deep into roadside ditch mud for some unknown maniac with too much red meat in his diet…and now disadvantaged being in an entirely immobilized truck. No way.

The armed tailgater caused this event. He had a responsibility to realize his environment.
He sure-as-God-made-apples knew that he was armed and driving very aggressively.

Based on the narrative given by the OP, this escalation is all squarely on the armed tailgater.
OP has very graciously "taken his lumps" a bunch of times yet this still had its genesis with the tailgater.
 
My take on it, regardless of the driving issues, is the sight of an OC handgun causing a change of attitude by the op.

I imagine without OC, maybe words would have lead to a fist fight. At least here, you can't use deadly force to save from being the loser in a fist fight. But it's very possible that the op would, if losing a fist fight, forget his wits and pull his gun. Maybe just in hopes the appearance of a gun would stop the assault. If that happened and the other driver was CCing, he would then likely draw and fire. If he wasn't, it's possible he could have disarmed The op. Or been killed.

I also see the wife was ready, man... Can you imagine, the OC guy flinches and the wife opens fire....

Or, If the other guy wasn't OCing, a fistfight ensues, other guy is winning the fistfight against OP, what does the wife do? Watch OP take a buttwhooping?

I mean no disrespect to the OP here. It makes you think though.


If he hadn't been visibly armed and pushed for a fistfight, what would you, and the wife, have done?
 
The guy carrying in a crappy holster doesn't mean he didn't have skills. He could have been a master class shooter, and his dog ate his Ritchie hideaway, and he had an uncle mikes as a get by until a new holster arrived. The fact that his hand didn't get near his holster indicates maybe he has more skill than first assumed.

If he had put his hand near his holster, not in a draw manner, but you had drawed on him, it's possible a gunfight would have ensued. It's also possible that he'd left and come back with the sheriff and you'd be in some sort of trouble for drawing on someone without cause.

I wonder if he got on his gun forum a year ago and ranted about the a-hole that run him off the road and almost got shot if he had jumped out with a weapon.
 
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