I don't know. It does not matter. And I do not know about criminal and tort law in Chile.
The problem is that it is potentially a weapon of mass destruction.
Alrighty then.
Self defense while getting gas
- Thread starter Dr T
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Dr T
Member
In reading back through this thread, I will admit that the possibility of using the gas pump did not occur to me. I have seen what happens when people get burned by gasoline and know how easy it is to ignite. And, it is omnidirectional in its effect.
I do want to explain the rationale for my selection of the Black Widow. It is not the only handgun I own. These range from a NAA Pug (an interesting little gun) to a Blackhawk Bisley in 45 Colt and include, among others a Ruger LCP, several LCRs, a variety of J Frames in 22 LR and 38 Special, a S&W K frame in 357 with 2.5" barrel, some 1911s, a Sig 238, Glock 17, and Sig 250 Compact.
When I thought the scenario through, it ultimately dawned on me that if I don't have something with me, I can't use it.
The finalists on my list were:
NAA Pug in 22WRM
Black Widow in 22 WRM
LCP
Ruger LC9
LCR in 38 Special with Laser
Ruger Super Blackhawk Bisley 44 Mag with 3.5" barrel in a Tanker holster.
All of these I have carried in field while hunting or making rounds at the ranch. The Bisley is a sentimental favorite. It is the most accurate handgun own, but it is bulky, slow to unholster, and difficult to adequately conceal (except when you are wearing a jacket. Thus, it is not practical for daily carry in this urban environment (Denver area).
The LCP and LC9 were carefully considered. I favored the LC9 primarily because of the external safely. DAO provides a measure of safety, but there is something about semiautomatic pistols in my front pocket close to the femoral artery and mending femor that gives me pause. Ultimately, I am simply more comfortable with revolvers.
That left the LCR, Black Widow, and Pug. The LCR (I have 3: 22 LR, 22 WRM, and 38 Special) are nice little revolvers. However, they are fairly bulky and not really that comfortable to carry for me (some surgical scars, etc).
I have good gun leather for the Pug and Black Widow. However, the leather for the Black Widow works much better. It is much more comfortable, and it is easy to bring the Black Widow into action quickly.
The ergonomics of the Black Widow also work for me (a bit better that the Pug) and the gun is very well made and fairly accurate. However it takes a bit of practice, and will never win a speed loading contest. Also, the 22 WRM works a lot better in practice than it does on paper. It is easy for me to control with one hand while standing on one leg and balancing with my cane. Those who have not checked may find the terminal ballistics surprising when compared to the 380.
I do much of my shooting practice with short barreled revolvers in the lead up for deer season. It helps focus my mind on trigger pull and breathing. To some extent this has influenced my selection. For what it is worth, Jeff Cooper was a fan of the 22 WRM in a short barreled revolver for self defense.
Life is full of compromises. This should partially explain my selection of a pea shooter.
I do want to explain the rationale for my selection of the Black Widow. It is not the only handgun I own. These range from a NAA Pug (an interesting little gun) to a Blackhawk Bisley in 45 Colt and include, among others a Ruger LCP, several LCRs, a variety of J Frames in 22 LR and 38 Special, a S&W K frame in 357 with 2.5" barrel, some 1911s, a Sig 238, Glock 17, and Sig 250 Compact.
When I thought the scenario through, it ultimately dawned on me that if I don't have something with me, I can't use it.
The finalists on my list were:
NAA Pug in 22WRM
Black Widow in 22 WRM
LCP
Ruger LC9
LCR in 38 Special with Laser
Ruger Super Blackhawk Bisley 44 Mag with 3.5" barrel in a Tanker holster.
All of these I have carried in field while hunting or making rounds at the ranch. The Bisley is a sentimental favorite. It is the most accurate handgun own, but it is bulky, slow to unholster, and difficult to adequately conceal (except when you are wearing a jacket. Thus, it is not practical for daily carry in this urban environment (Denver area).
The LCP and LC9 were carefully considered. I favored the LC9 primarily because of the external safely. DAO provides a measure of safety, but there is something about semiautomatic pistols in my front pocket close to the femoral artery and mending femor that gives me pause. Ultimately, I am simply more comfortable with revolvers.
That left the LCR, Black Widow, and Pug. The LCR (I have 3: 22 LR, 22 WRM, and 38 Special) are nice little revolvers. However, they are fairly bulky and not really that comfortable to carry for me (some surgical scars, etc).
I have good gun leather for the Pug and Black Widow. However, the leather for the Black Widow works much better. It is much more comfortable, and it is easy to bring the Black Widow into action quickly.
The ergonomics of the Black Widow also work for me (a bit better that the Pug) and the gun is very well made and fairly accurate. However it takes a bit of practice, and will never win a speed loading contest. Also, the 22 WRM works a lot better in practice than it does on paper. It is easy for me to control with one hand while standing on one leg and balancing with my cane. Those who have not checked may find the terminal ballistics surprising when compared to the 380.
I do much of my shooting practice with short barreled revolvers in the lead up for deer season. It helps focus my mind on trigger pull and breathing. To some extent this has influenced my selection. For what it is worth, Jeff Cooper was a fan of the 22 WRM in a short barreled revolver for self defense.
Life is full of compromises. This should partially explain my selection of a pea shooter.
The Night Rider
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You do you Boo
Hugger-4641
Member
Here's my thought on this, right or wrong:
I'd like to think if I drew my firearm and fired that I wouldn't miss my target. I don't think I would, but let's face it, statistics say the chances are good that I will miss at least a shot or two.
Even if I cause a fire, chances are the innocent bystanders have plenty of time to escape.
If I miss, even with a pea shooter, and I hit an innocent bystander 200ft away that I wasn't even aware of, chances of that person escaping are gone.
Yes, and it is also possible that a miss will strike an innocent person. However, a trained parson with a firearm is always expected to exercise prudence and to comply with the rules of firearm safety--and the potential civil and criminal liabilities are very well understood.
That is possible, but it would be foolhardy in the extreme to count on it.
OP
OP
Dr T
Member
I carried pepper spray--but I had a defective unit go off in my pocket. Not pleasant.
citizenconn
Member
I don't know that I have anything substantial to add to the conversation, but this is a scenario that happens at least weekly here in the Houston area where I live. If you think I'm making this up, I can send you links to dozens of cases in the last few months. Like in that video, it is a car zooming up to where a lone person is pumping gas, then 2-3 thugs jump out of their car with pistols drawn, sometimes other weapons but mostly pistols, demanding the keys to the victim's car and his/her wallet, purse, and cell phone.
In Houston most of these fuel center carjackings are happening either very early in the morning, say 5-7 am, or in the early afternoon, 2-4 pm. Some are later in the evening but hardly any really late at night. Almost all are at fuel centers adjacent to interstates or major highways and close to middle and upper class suburban enclaves. For the most part they are targeting commuters in new model sedans, I would speculate because they think these drivers are the least likely to fight back and have the most $$$ to steal.
Interestingly, in recent months these would-be carjackers have only gotten away scot free about 40-50% of the time. Increasingly they are finding their intended victims to be armed and willing to shoot. Several have been caught because they did not drive the stolen cars out of the area quickly enough and police were able to catch them, which I would interpret to mean they are casing places not too far away from where they live. Several others have been caught because of being shot by the victims, even in cases when the victims have been shot as well.
Now I drive 25 miles to work 5-6 days a week on I-45 going through downtown Houston and back again up to where I live near the Woodlands. I never let my significant other pump her own gas. I fill both our vehicles. I choose stations where I know there is security on site , or stations without quick access for regress or where you have to have a membership to get gas such as Sam's.
I always lock my car when I get out and am pumping gas, and I always have a loaded pistol in my pocket in go mode. I try to station myself where I have the optimal view of everyone coming and going, i.e. the best situational awareness I can manage. Is it going to be perfect and always protect me? Perhaps not, but I am going to stack the court in my favor as much as possible.
Like the joke with the punchline where the guy says "I don't have to outrun the bear; I just have to outrun you," make yourself a less easy target than everyone else around you. And always fill up if you can afford it. The less times I visit the pumps, the less chances they have to jack me. Adjust the plan to fit your situation.
Next time we can discuss the other growing carjacking technique, the rear-end and rob.
In Houston most of these fuel center carjackings are happening either very early in the morning, say 5-7 am, or in the early afternoon, 2-4 pm. Some are later in the evening but hardly any really late at night. Almost all are at fuel centers adjacent to interstates or major highways and close to middle and upper class suburban enclaves. For the most part they are targeting commuters in new model sedans, I would speculate because they think these drivers are the least likely to fight back and have the most $$$ to steal.
Interestingly, in recent months these would-be carjackers have only gotten away scot free about 40-50% of the time. Increasingly they are finding their intended victims to be armed and willing to shoot. Several have been caught because they did not drive the stolen cars out of the area quickly enough and police were able to catch them, which I would interpret to mean they are casing places not too far away from where they live. Several others have been caught because of being shot by the victims, even in cases when the victims have been shot as well.
Now I drive 25 miles to work 5-6 days a week on I-45 going through downtown Houston and back again up to where I live near the Woodlands. I never let my significant other pump her own gas. I fill both our vehicles. I choose stations where I know there is security on site , or stations without quick access for regress or where you have to have a membership to get gas such as Sam's.
I always lock my car when I get out and am pumping gas, and I always have a loaded pistol in my pocket in go mode. I try to station myself where I have the optimal view of everyone coming and going, i.e. the best situational awareness I can manage. Is it going to be perfect and always protect me? Perhaps not, but I am going to stack the court in my favor as much as possible.
Like the joke with the punchline where the guy says "I don't have to outrun the bear; I just have to outrun you," make yourself a less easy target than everyone else around you. And always fill up if you can afford it. The less times I visit the pumps, the less chances they have to jack me. Adjust the plan to fit your situation.
Next time we can discuss the other growing carjacking technique, the rear-end and rob.
Good strategy.
PWC
Member
While this isn't at the pump, a cell phone can help. I live on a street with a grade school half way down the block to the east, and a middle school halfway down th block to the west, and a high school around the corner and its property butts up to the middle school.
Kids walk in front of my house all the time, usually in groups of 2 to 5. The girls that do walk by themselves are usually on their cell phones. They don't pay attention to situational awareness but if something happens the other person knows. So, cell phones are a good idea, at least false comfort.
In 20 yrs, my wife has interrupted 2 incidents of girls being followed / harrased by men in cars, by pretending to write down license numbers (no parer close at hand) and calling the girls over. Once saved a high school kid hiding from a gang driving up and down the street in a pickup looking for him.
Now, current times, most kids, (grade school and middle) one of the parents is sitting in a parked car on our street waiting.
Kids walk in front of my house all the time, usually in groups of 2 to 5. The girls that do walk by themselves are usually on their cell phones. They don't pay attention to situational awareness but if something happens the other person knows. So, cell phones are a good idea, at least false comfort.
In 20 yrs, my wife has interrupted 2 incidents of girls being followed / harrased by men in cars, by pretending to write down license numbers (no parer close at hand) and calling the girls over. Once saved a high school kid hiding from a gang driving up and down the street in a pickup looking for him.
Now, current times, most kids, (grade school and middle) one of the parents is sitting in a parked car on our street waiting.
Double Naught Spy
Sus Venator
It might be one's last act, but it is certainly reasonable to use whatever tools are at hand to fight against lethal force.
As near as I can tell, you pretty much don't like anything that isn't clear cut, 100%, black & white, lest something bad might happen to you AFTER the event, assuming you lived. Other folks prefer to go the route of surviving the event as best as possible and letter their lawyers work it out.
crestoncowboy
Member
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- 3,307
I run a shop. Been covered in gas about 500 times as well as others in my shop. Ive never had any skin fall off and never been blinded. Nor have I seen any employee have any issue with it. It does burn in the eyes though.
Some sams club don't require a membership to get gas. And most are so far removed from the actual store that I would almost think it a worse choice.
Plus it's not top tier gas for those that worry about that.
Spraying gas should be a last resort if at all. Having seen vehicles burn down in seconds and seen gasoline ignite on more than one occasion, (even causing two of the most painful deaths I could imagine), I have a healthier respect for it than I used to. If they shoot while your pumping it at them, your probably going to die the most painful death imaginable. If they are smoking or any static ignites...same thing. Ive tried to put out fuel fires and even saw demonstrations of it fail. It's nothing to play with and goes fast. Ive seen vehicles burn to the ground INSIDE the fire hall and quads Burn completly sitting in knee deep water. Not even worrying about the legal issues, it's a good way to die and burn up your family as well. Ive personally let a quad burn down. It backfired through the carb, within seconds burned through the plastic tank and dumped all the fuel. 2 ABC 20LB fire extinguisher didn't slow it and it was gone in less than a minute.
Ive also got gas for many years in crappy places from Brooklyn to Raleigh.....never had much worry about it. If I get to that point I guess I'll just stay home
Provided that those tools d ont recklessly endanger others. Someone else will decide, and I wouldn't wager a plugged nickel on the outcome. Should a bystander be killed, it would certainly meet the definition of criminal involuntary manslaughter, and God help the defendant in the civil cases.
Nothing in a use of force incident is ever 100%. Even if the actor did everything right, he stands about a 10% chance of conviction.
What would the lawyers do?
aaaaa
Member
Yep, I think the skin only falls off after it ignites.
I was a pump jockey in the 1970s and once got a soaker of gasoline on my leg. Yep, it makes a burning feeling like as with hot pepper sauce, but didn't do permanent damage.
citizenconn
Member
I have cleaned many a carburetor and other engine parts in gasoline and my skin never fell off. May have gotten a little lightheaded,Yep, I think the skin only falls off after it ignites.
That is NOT the issue here.
citizenconn
Member
Exactly what is the issue? I am old and a little slow these days.
Fire--which is what gasoline is supposed to cause.
citizenconn
Member
And the next thing you know you've lit the guy on fire. I don't even know where I'd begin to defend myself in court from that one.
The Night Rider
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In what state are you admitted to the bar?
If Fred Fuller and Spats Magee have the same opinion I'll listen
aaaaa
Member
Well the one video was with diesel fuel, which is not such a fire hazard. But in America most use gasoline, which is. We need to convert to diesel I guess. Then we will have defensive guns that shoot slimy liquid all over the perps.
Rubone
Member
Well when I get gas it is its own self defense
old lady new shooter
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Yes, since moving to Arizona (which anyway has WAY less of these types of incidents than L.A. where I came from) I always gas up at Costco, it's convenient since it's quite close to my house.
The legal issue on that would be one of whether you had used no mor force than was necessary. Taht is aa real issue, but I think the bigger one would relate to the injury to bystanders.
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