deputy bruce
Member
- Joined
- Mar 25, 2015
- Messages
- 210
HI, I am getting an older m14 or m1a and I have been told there is a pressure curve. Can anyone please inform me about loading and misc. anything else I have to know?
M14 M1a QUESTION
- Thread starter deputy bruce
- Start date
- Status
243winxb
Member
4895 powder would be my choice to start. Sierra info- https://www.sierrabullets.com/reload-basics/reloading-for-semi-autos-and-service-rifles/
lightman
Member
Use 150 or 168 grain bullets and powder from the middle of the list in the loading books. IMR 3031, 4895 up to 4064. The tougher brass works better. IMI, LC or other military headstamps hold up better.
Charlie98
Member
There is a LOT more to loading successfully in the M1a, you will need to do some reading on it. A search here will bring some good threads up for you.
To answer the question about the pressure in the M1a... everyone here pretty much hit it... IMR or H 4895 is the standard with 150-168grn bullets, IMR4064 with the 168-175grn bullets; you can typically substitute similar powders within that burn rate window. As was also mentioned, both Hodgdon and Hornady have 'service rifle data' that covers the greatest hits for reloading the M1a. Some complain that the loads are 'watered down,' but they are reasonable loads unless you are shooting past 600yds.
To answer the question about the pressure in the M1a... everyone here pretty much hit it... IMR or H 4895 is the standard with 150-168grn bullets, IMR4064 with the 168-175grn bullets; you can typically substitute similar powders within that burn rate window. As was also mentioned, both Hodgdon and Hornady have 'service rifle data' that covers the greatest hits for reloading the M1a. Some complain that the loads are 'watered down,' but they are reasonable loads unless you are shooting past 600yds.
chas442
Member
I heard somewhere that the gas system was self regulating in an m14/m1a. It sounds like that is not true.
Nature Boy
Member
- Joined
- Apr 21, 2015
- Messages
- 8,237
I called and asked SA a while back about that and they said you are fine to shoot any commercial ammo with bullet weights 180gn and below. They also said that they do not recommend exposed lead soft points as the potential of lead shaving off in the feeding process could end up the trigger group and cause malfunctions.
Reloadron
Contributing Member
These are popular service rifle loadings for a M14 / M1A rifle. Scroll down the page to the M1 Garand 308 and M1A 308 Loading Data Suggestions. Personally I like powders like IMR® 4895, Hodgdon® 4895, Accurate Arms® 2495 and never cared for Varget but see what works for you in your rifle. I also like Sierra 168 grain match king bullets but for general use the Hornady 150 grain FMJ BT bullets are fine. Again, it's a matter of what works well for you in your rifle.
Ron
Ron
AlfieB
Member
Check the head-space. Some military rifles have been shot a lot, which which wears the bolt lugs.
A load that loads and ejects, and goes into 1 MOA. is satisfactory.
Use lithium grease on the bolt and the operating rod and spring.
A load that loads and ejects, and goes into 1 MOA. is satisfactory.
Use lithium grease on the bolt and the operating rod and spring.
Charlie98
Member
I don't necessarily agree with that, that would include all M80 surplus and it's equivalents. What I would avoid would be specialty ammos, like Hornady's Superformance, etc, and heavy for cartridge bullet loads; those would likely use slower powders than what would be appropriate for the M1a's action.
The military has never sold M14 rifles as surplus or otherwise. Under the BATFE's 'once a machine gun, always a machine gun' directive, an M14 cannot be modified to become a 'semi-auto,' and thus be sold as surplus. In reality it is quite easy, but that is not the Government Way. FWIW, I would have any older M1a checked for headspace, and have the bolt inspected for wear or damage.
Reloadron
Contributing Member
The government did loan M14 rifles to sanctioned shooting clubs for a period of time. Among them the Texas State Rifle Association and my brother in laws club in West Virginia. All of the rifles have since been recalled. The rifles were only to be used in matches and for training.
For anyone interested in checking headspace it goes a little like this:
Strip the bolt, a .45 ACP case works or just cut a case down.
Stripped bolt assembly.
Headspace Gauges a complete set for .308 Win
Bolt home less any gauge in chamber.
A 1.634 NoGo gauge inserted. The bolt won't close.
Using a 1.632 gauge with some effort the bolt does close.
Unless one had reason for concern I would not worry about headspace. New factory ammunition generally comes in at 1.629" base to shoulder datum. Using a Hornady Lock and Load cartridge gauge or similar if a case grows more than 0.004 to 0.008" (Field Numbers) then I would worry about checking headspace. Just my opinion.
Ron
Charlie98
Member
Indeed.
There are a few places in the world where you can get an M14... but America, with very rare exception, ain't one of them. Very sad, indeed.
Reloadron
Contributing Member
Several years back a good friend who is a class 3 type did buy his actual M14 about 10 years ago. I believe he paid $25,000 for the gun alone. Hell, he also owns an M16 and AK47. The guys that are into the class three stuff live for the machine gun shoots at Knob Creek KY every year. Yeah, you want class 3 you need very deep pockets. Personally I never had the bug and while shooting class 3 is definitely a blast (literally) it's also pretty expensive.
Ron
Download, read, and file the counsel below:
http://www.m14.ca/reloading/14_loading.pdf
It will address nearly all issues ... that really aren't all that hair-pulling.*
* But don't let anyone know.
We need to maintain the mystique.
http://www.m14.ca/reloading/14_loading.pdf
It will address nearly all issues ... that really aren't all that hair-pulling.*
* But don't let anyone know.
We need to maintain the mystique.
Reloadron
Contributing Member
Zediker always has good information. He also wrote a few books including Competitive AR15.
Ron
Vern Humphrey
Member
It is true. There are three gas ports -- the barrel, the gas cylinder, and the piston. When the system is at rest, the three ports are aligned.
On firing, gas vents to the inside of the piston and is it expands the piston moves backward, moving its port out of alignment with the cylinder port and shutting off the gas flow. With high pressure, it moves fast and quickly shuts off the flow. With less pressure it moves more slowly and allows more gas to enter the cylinder.
Charlie98
Member
Several years back a good friend who is a class 3 type did buy his actual M14 about 10 years ago. I believe he paid $25,000 for the gun alone. Hell, he also owns an M16 and AK47. The guys that are into the class three stuff live for the machine gun shoots at Knob Creek KY every year. Yeah, you want class 3 you need very deep pockets. Personally I never had the bug and while shooting class 3 is definitely a blast (literally) it's also pretty expensive.
Ron
The issue with the M14 specifically is... there are so very few of them to start with.
I got to do the full-auto thing when I was in the Army... it's fun when you are burning someone else's ammos, and particularly the M2 .50cal! ...but it's a poor means to an end in most cases if you are looking for accurate fire.
I thought Knob Creek was done with shoots?
Reloadron
Contributing Member
Well I'll be, it seems 2021 was indeed the last shoot at Knob Creek.
My M14 days were Marine Corps. Qualified with the M14 and did ITR and BITS battalion with the M14 and when I got to Nam in 72 was issued a M16. Night fire was fun.
Anyway, yes, I stand corrected on Knob Creek. Thanks for pointing that out. Guess I just don't keep up with the wonderful world of machine guns anymore.
Ron
bangswitch
Member
I'd buy a copy of Kulek and McKee's "The M14 Complete Assembly Guide", a very comprehensive manual on the care and feeding of the M14/M1A.
The "pressure curve" you speak of, has to do with the deflagration rates of acceptable powders for use in the ammunition. The oprod is designed for a relatively short "kick" as gas pressure peaks and then rolls off, and inertia finishes the cycling of the action. Too long a kick becomes a constant "push", which keeps pressure on the oprod into the max bolt opening. The pressure can bend the oprod at the least, and at the worst can blow the bolt backwards out of its track. Someone mentioned loading by the Hornady data on the .308 service rifle; good advice. I've loaded my M1A Loaded model for 9 years by this data, and the rifle runs without incident, and accurately as well.
I agree, and I use Wilson case gauges for the same purpose.
If you use NATO cases, the case walls are a little thicker, so case volume is less than a standard .308 case. keep this in mind, as the same powder load in the .308 case will create greater pressure in the NATO case. I use Lake City once-fired NATO brass exclusively in my rifle, and stay with 168 grain bullets, either Hornady AMAX or ELD bullets, or Sierra Match King. I also only use H4895 or IMR 4895 powder, and Winchester Large Rifle primers.
The M1A is a nice rifle for bench rest shooting; it's a heavy beast, so if you do CMP shooting from sitting, standing or prone positions, beef up your arms a bit, and get a good GI leather sling for it. With eagle's eyes, or a scope, it's good out past 800 yards
Reloadron
Contributing Member
On the subject of case gauges this is an old thread where we touch on the good and not so good as to case gauges in general. The Wilson gauges are in the mix.
As to case volume years ago I did some messing around with that.
The brass used was all clean and once fired. The cases were all sized identical and trimmed identical. The primer pockets were plugged using modeling clay. The WCC 10 and LC 13 were GI brass the remainder commercial. The lots of ten were randomly picked from large lots. Overall the average volume is pretty close. I used distilled water but doubt it mattered much and a drop of dishwashing soap in the water so as not to get a bubble top on the cases. This was several years ago and I have yet to load the cases and chronograph them with identical powder charges. Maybe this year.
The 1.8 Tare was the weight of the modeling clay. Ron
Nature Boy
Member
- Joined
- Apr 21, 2015
- Messages
- 8,237
Ron, when I first got my M1 I read Zediker’s instructions and found a lot of it informative. I also learned that some of it didn’t relate to my experience and that of others who had a lot of time shooting and reloading for the platform. For instance:
1. never uses cases after 3 firings.
I had over 10 reloads on some of my LC and Federal brass
2. never use Varget.
I used a lot of Varget (as do many) with nary a problem. The only time I hear someone say “you can’t use Varget in the M1A” it’s always because Zediker said so and not because of any other reason.
Reloadron
Contributing Member
I agree and while most of his writing is good stuff some of it I don't quite agree with. Using Varget is one of them. I have found my rifle does best with AA2495 plenty of Varget went through it. Never did it "feel" wrong. Zediker passed away going on 2 years ago. Anyway, I agree with you on that.
Ron
- Status
