SCOTUS considering Bianchi v Frosh/Duncan v Bonta the turning point for AW/magazine ban?

This case only pertains to semi-auto rifles correct?


Since SCOTUS takes so few cases a year it would be better to get one that persons to semi-automatic weapons and high-capacity magazines.

stillquietvoice said:

Apart from a few minor differences they are the same

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Legally the difference between semiautomatic and full automatic is not a minor difference.

JohnKSa said:

The AR-15 may be "easy" to convert, but it's hard enough to satisfy the BATF.

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The initial ATF approval for Colt to market the semiautomatic AR-15 came in 1964, before the Gun Control Act of 1968. This is a key factor, because the "readily convertible" language was added by the GCA '68. The ATF could have rescinded the approval in 1968, based on the new law, but it didn't. Perhaps the ATF was worried about grandfathering the ones already in private hands, which were, after all, niche weapons. And recall that the ATF was busy (distracted) processing the thousands of amnesty applications submitted in November of 1968.

The passage of time (nearly 60 years) has sanctified the existing situation. And the intervening Hughes Amendment complicates things. If AR's were ruled to be machine guns now, they would all be instant contraband because there's no longer any way to register them under the NFA. Such a result would be politically intolerable.

JohnKSa said:

Yes, of course they are.

But that's a useless comparison because there is no machine gun ban. Here's the real comparison.

An assault weapon BAN is not the same as machine gun REGISTRATION.

That is true even with the registry closed to new entries. One prohibits ownership. The other just makes it expensive and adds paperwork, background checks and delays, all of which SCOTUS won't touch.The law is not a step-by-step process where it first takes things away and then gives them back. You have to look at all of it to see what the situation is. In this case, when you look at all of it there is no prohibition.

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There is no ban? So why will the feds throw me in prison for up to ten years if I make a machine gun?

There something like 200,000 or less transferrable machine guns in the USA. There are over 330,000,000 Americans. There are not enough machine guns to go around for all Americans but a tiny, tiny fraction of those us who are legally qualified to buy one. This is a ban on most Americans owning a machine gun. Eventually, the transferrable guns will be worn out and none will be legally available, banning them for all of us.

Yes, this absolutely a ban on the large majority of Americans owning machine guns. Eventually, no Americans will be able to legally buy one!

F-111 John said:

One part of the Heller decision I don't like is the "in common use" test. Moving forward, how does something new become "in common use" if it can be banned while still "novel"?

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You are right. It is an idiotic circular argument. If people don't own it because it is banned, then it is not in common use, and so is okay to be banned.

The government could have banned any new gun type- percussion caps, metallic ammunition whatever- as soon as it was invented, and that would be just fine under this stupid "test."

Where do you get the 700M figure? After all the NFA registry includes everything from cane guns to AOW's................I have seen claims alleging a mere 200M for AW's..........has anyone sought an FOI request?

usaral63 said:

Where do you get the 700M figure? After all the NFA registry includes everything from cane guns to AOW's................I have seen claims alleging a mere 200M for AW's..........has anyone sought an FOI request?

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The NFA registry includes Destructive Devices. Those numbers are highly inflated by including things like police flash-bangs. (Although the military doesn't register its ordnance, the non-federal police does.) The actual number of machine guns in the registry is in the 200K range. Of those, a large number are drop-in auto sears. And don't forget that both transferable and non-transferable machine guns are included in the total. Transferable guns are steadily diminishing through attrition. It's going to get to the point where they will be so rare and valuable that someone would have to be crazy to actually shoot them. This is all according to plan.

Suddenly declaring millions of guns to be contraband simply won't fly.

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Won't fly with who? They don't give a d@m# about what anyone likes or doesn't like. At this point it's what they can push through in a bum's rush before they're possibly temporarily out of power. The system of checks and balances ain't workin'.

I6turbo said:

Won't fly with who? They don't give a d@m# about what anyone likes or doesn't like.

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They sure do give a damn about being elected. Gun confiscation is absolute poison among the electorate. The problem is that the elites that purport to speak for the Democrats don't accurately reflect the Democratic base. Polls show that less than half of Democrats would support a meaningful ban. (Of course, Republican opposition is nearly unanimous.) The Republicans are using this as a wedge issue to peel away some Democrats.

AlexanderA said:

They sure do give a damn about being elected. Gun confiscation is absolute poison among the electorate. The problem is that the elites that purport to speak for the Democrats don't accurately reflect the Democratic base. Polls show that less than half of Democrats would support a meaningful ban. (Of course, Republican opposition is nearly unanimous.) The Republicans are using this as a wedge issue to peel away some Democrats.

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IMO, the ones who are actually in power and making the calls for the administration and the institutions aren't worrying about getting re-elected in 2022. They are doing as much damage as they possibly can between now and whenever a bunch of the current office-holders are out. What's happening is NOT bad management, bad judgement, or mis-understanding what the majority of American people want. None of them are actually that stupid, but I'm sure they are thrilled that so many Americans are stupid enough to be distracted by thinking they are just misunderstanding what Americans want and therefore are making honest mistakes. This is an intentional takedown and "reset," which is what they've stated on many occasions is their purpose.

I want a FN P90, fully legal.

How's that possible?

There is a lot lip service coming from both sides of the fence from those in elected positions and all I hear is BLA, BLA, BLA.

The problem inlays deeply in our nations deep seeded history of war and violence. The basic underlaying fact is we are nation that was founded by the firearm like it or not. When I here terms thrown around loosely like Democrat, Republican, Liberal, Libertarian, Conservative and Independent for example. I often ask those using those terms. What are the route words of those terms? More often than not I'll get the deer in the head lights look. Pun intended.

Democrat: Democracy A form of western government based on the ancient Greek and Roman styles of rule.
Republican: Republic Also a form of government based the same as above with subtle differences.
Independent: This term is often gets me the most confused answer. The word by itself has its own unique meaning and often gets misunderstood especially by those using it for political purposes. So it could be argued it has its own definition. Which simply means free.
Liberal: Large copious amounts. Those claiming to be Liberal or Libertarian often align themselves with the Democratic party. These people are the most confused of them all.
Conservative: One who saves. The route term is conserve that means save.

All of these terms are often used in our Nations Declaration of Independence, Constitution, and our Bill of Rights.

So what is the solution I ask?

It seems to me that there is way too much division on the subject of gun control here in the United States of America. There isn't one person who hasn't been affected by the tragic events of our recent past. Not One!!! Some even more than others by losing loved ones. All of those who have lost loved ones you have my sincerest condolences.
I too have been a victim of gun violence personally on more than one occasion. Robbed at gunpoint at a Denny's in Florida, my uncle committed suicide with a firearm and no one in my family including myself saw any of the signs, and occupational hazards of being a Gi-Joe in the Army for more than 21 years with 4 tours to Iraq.

So what is the solution I ask?

There are many contributing factors to our nations issue of gun control. This hasn't occurred simply by happenstance it is an issue damn near a century in the making. Our problem here in the United States is the younger generations feel privileged and entitled to their freedoms that they haven't earned for themselves. They still live at home with their parents and don't work beyond leaving the couch long enough to go to the bathroom or refrigerator to make a snack.

So what is the solution I ask?

Does everyone need to own a gun? Absolutely not!!! There are some that carry them as service weapons which is a requirement of their profession they chose that I wouldn't trust with a bubble gun and I'm not just talking about children.
The sad reality of that statement is that those that serve in those professions are reflection of society good, bad or indifferent but reflection non the less.

There is no easy solution. I can only offer a few suggestions.
1) Use the existing back ground checks more effectively. There is no reason to add to the current vetting system. Fix what is broken if it is really broken at all.
2) Everyone who wants to own a firearm must complete a hunters safety course and I'll add to graduate the individual must kill and eat a rabbit or chicken to graduate period no exceptions regardless of age period.
3) Make the law enforcement agencies share the information more effectively.
4) Accept the fact that there will be a waiting period for certain firearms.
5) Hold those that get caught breaking the law and guilty of committing a violent crime with a firearm accountable. If we can get to them before the can take the cowards way out.

So what is your solution I ask?

F-111 John said:

One part of the Heller decision I don't like is the "in common use" test. Moving forward, how does something new become "in common use" if it can be banned while still "novel"?

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I have often thought that if "in common use" was the criteria for a firearm to be covered under the 2A, and we accept the idea of original intent and what something meant at the time of enactment, then only muzzle loaders would qualify since they were the only firearms in common use back then.

Mauser fan said:

There is a lot lip service coming from both sides of the fence from those in elected positions and all I hear is BLA, BLA, BLA.

The problem inlays deeply in our nations deep seeded history of war and violence. The basic underlaying fact is we are nation that was founded by the firearm like it or not. When I here terms thrown around loosely like Democrat, Republican, Liberal, Libertarian, Conservative and Independent for example. I often ask those using those terms. What are the route words of those terms? More often than not I'll get the deer in the head lights look. Pun intended.

Democrat: Democracy A form of western government based on the ancient Greek and Roman styles of rule.
Republican: Republic Also a form of government based the same as above with subtle differences.
Independent: This term is often gets me the most confused answer. The word by itself has its own unique meaning and often gets misunderstood especially by those using it for political purposes. So it could be argued it has its own definition. Which simply means free.
Liberal: Large copious amounts. Those claiming to be Liberal or Libertarian often align themselves with the Democratic party. These people are the most confused of them all.
Conservative: One who saves. The route term is conserve that means save.

All of these terms are often used in our Nations Declaration of Independence, Constitution, and our Bill of Rights.

So what is the solution I ask?

It seems to me that there is way too much division on the subject of gun control here in the United States of America. There isn't one person who hasn't been affected by the tragic events of our recent past. Not One!!! Some even more than others by losing loved ones. All of those who have lost loved ones you have my sincerest condolences.
I too have been a victim of gun violence personally on more than one occasion. Robbed at gunpoint at a Denny's in Florida, my uncle committed suicide with a firearm and no one in my family including myself saw any of the signs, and occupational hazards of being a Gi-Joe in the Army for more than 21 years with 4 tours to Iraq.

So what is the solution I ask?

There are many contributing factors to our nations issue of gun control. This hasn't occurred simply by happenstance it is an issue damn near a century in the making. Our problem here in the United States is the younger generations feel privileged and entitled to their freedoms that they haven't earned for themselves. They still live at home with their parents and don't work beyond leaving the couch long enough to go to the bathroom or refrigerator to make a snack.

So what is the solution I ask?

Does everyone need to own a gun? Absolutely not!!! There are some that carry them as service weapons which is a requirement of their profession they chose that I wouldn't trust with a bubble gun and I'm not just talking about children.
The sad reality of that statement is that those that serve in those professions are reflection of society good, bad or indifferent but reflection non the less.

There is no easy solution. I can only offer a few suggestions.
1) Use the existing back ground checks more effectively. There is no reason to add to the current vetting system. Fix what is broken if it is really broken at all.
2) Everyone who wants to own a firearm must complete a hunters safety course and I'll add to graduate the individual must kill and eat a rabbit or chicken to graduate period no exceptions regardless of age period.
3) Make the law enforcement agencies share the information more effectively.
4) Accept the fact that there will be a waiting period for certain firearms.
5) Hold those that get caught breaking the law and guilty of committing a violent crime with a firearm accountable. If we can get to them before the can take the cowards way out.

So what is your solution I ask?

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Making background checks more effective ? Do you remember the proposal a few years back when they wanted to add the no-fly list to FICS ? How about banning purchase for senior veterans who needed help getting their taxes done ? IMHO You should need a court ruling to add a person to NICS (oh wait, we have that, it's called a felony).

While I'm not against killing and eating chickens I think you should leave that part out of your proposal. I have no real problem with a safety / proficiency test.

What good will a waiting period do ? It is normally touted as a cooling off period. From what I recall all of the mass shootings have been planned over several days at least and there is zero evidence that extending this period would have any effect. Of course, most shootings (e.g. Chicago, Philly, NYC, Baltimore, etc) are by criminals who have obtained their weapons illegally.

The used to be a mandatory minimum sentence of 5 years (if I recall correctly) in most states for a felony committed with a firearm. Now lenient DAs let off weapons offenders with no cash bail and they're out in a matter of hours.

Personally, what I would do is promote moral teaching and mentoring. That would primarily be in promoting religious studies but also a big brother / big sister mentoring program. I would also promote the 'see something / say something' in all schools similar to the DARE program. Nowadays a bag sitting alone in an airport will be reported within 5 minutes. We should get to that in the chat rooms where the kids discuss this stuff. THAT would have made a difference in most of these shootings. Then we should add back the guidance counselors in schools to help straighten these kids out (in conjunction with religion and / or big brother / sister).

You are correctumundo to your own point of view.

Zerodefect said:

I want a FN P90, fully legal.

How's that possible?

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Become a Federally Licensed Firearms Dealer, get a letter from a police agency or other government agency that they are interested in purchasing an FN P90 and would like to see a demonstration, and obtain the FN P90 from FN.

https://www.atf.gov/firearms/firear...earms-ammunition-and-implements-war-sales-and



Pursuant to the above section of regulations, applications to transfer and register machineguns manufactured or imported on or after May 19, 1986, to qualified firearms dealers will be approved if:

• Letterhead documentation signed by the law enforcement or government agency official having jurisdiction over the particular area and current, expressing an interest in seeing a demonstration of the particular firearm is attached to the Form 6. The required documentation must specifically identify the firearm by type, caliber, model designation, if any, and serial number, if known,
  
• Information that additional quantities of the specific firearm are available to fill future orders is attached to the Form 6,
  
• The firearm sought for use as a sales sample is not presently in the requestor’s inventory,
  
• Documentation clearly establishing the need for more than one of a particular type, caliber, or model firearm as a sales sample is attached to the Form 6. See ATF Ruling 2002-5 reprinted below for more information and guidance, and/or
  
• A copy of the special (occupational) tax stamp of the dealer attempting to acquire the sales sample is attached to the Form 6.

F-111 John said:

Become a Federally Licensed Firearms Dealer, get a letter from a police agency or other government agency that they are interested in purchasing an FN P90 and would like to see a demonstration, and obtain the FN P90 from FN.

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What a sham. This process is not easy, nor is it without its downsides. The only solution is to repeal the Hughes Amendment.

AlexanderA said:

What a sham. This process is not easy, nor is it without its downsides. The only solution is to repeal the Hughes Amendment.

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The Hughes Amendment will most likely never be repealed because of an unholy alliance between current transferrable machine gun owners and the anti-gun lobby.

The anti-gun lobby will oppose adding more machine guns to the registry because they're against guns, and the current owners of transferrable machine guns would oppose adding more machine guns to the registry because they would see a precipitous drop in the value of their current holdings.

A transferrable M16 that is currently worth $30,000 would probably be worth $3,000 if you could suddenly register new lightning links for $200.

AlexanderA said:

This bears watching.


From this, it appears that the pro-gun groups are basing their case on verbiage in the Heller decision regarding "common use," etc. Strange as it may seem, other verbiage in the Heller decision may turn out to be their biggest roadblock.

To arrive at the result that we want, the Court may have to overrule the Heller case, at least in part. I've said for years that they need to go back to the 1939 Miller case as the standard: guns are protected that are suitable for military / militia use, not necessarily for civilian use only. "Assault weapons" -- and, indeed, fully automatic weapons -- are eminently suitable for militia use.

This Court seems to have no difficulty overruling established precedent.

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Be careful what you wish for. If the 2nd Amendment applies to guns suitable for milita use, then then it also implies that only militia members are covered under the 2nd Amendment.

Talk about banning under 21 year olds from gun ownership? Imagine banning anyone over 45 or nt on active/guard/reserve status.