Understanding Long Range Shooting. Question.

It's you, it's the rifle, it's the ammo, it's the setup, it's the technique, it's everything .... all that makes it difficult, and that's what make it fun and interesting and a challenge. It's not that the round goes "wherever it wants" it's that there are so many variables involved and that they are magnified as the distance increases. Yes, it's difficult!! Have a great time overcoming those challenges!! That's what makes life a bitch, and by a very odd coincidence, makes life interesting and fun. You'd be pretty bored with no challenges to overcome.

As you have found out, consistency is the key to accurate shooting.

Hitting a man size target at 300 meters with iron sights is fairly easy while shooting tiny groups using a good rifle and scope at that distance is definitely more of a challenge.

MR WICK said:

Is that me, the rifle, or is it just that difficult? I can't imagine at 200 yards with a quality rifle and match grade ammo that it should be that difficult.

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Yes, it's that difficult... for me anyway! I've printed some amazing groups at 100 yd. with my Savage, only to move to 200 with the same ammo and conditions, and end up where I have no clue (other than I'm clearly doing something wrong) what the heck is going on.

Reminds me a lot of when I spent a fair amount of time golfing. You hit it just right and then spend the rest of the time trying to figure out "How'd I do that?"

I do think correct and consistent practice is the key and I know I don't do enough of that...

Get good at shooting PRS matches and you will figure out how to get the accuracy in a lot of different situations and positions. Learning to build a good shooting position in an awkward position is a great skill to have for both competition and hunting.

Just took my dad to some long distance shooting he couldn't get consistent impacts till we worked out his position so he was aligned properly and comfortably.....or as comfortable as you can get using the last hash in a scope cranked right to max lol.

MR WICK said:

Is it me or is there an overwhelming amount of precision that goes into long distance shooting. If I do even the slightest of things different the round goes wherever it wants. The location of the butt of my rifle needs to be in an exact position inbetween my shoulder and pec, the rifle needs to be extended in front of me a certain and specific distance, my trigger finger needs to be in an exact place on the trigger, and the squeeze has to be slow and perfect. Even at 200 yards I need to be exactly spot on with each independent variable or the round goes way off course.


Now. Is that me, the rifle, or is it just that difficult? I can't imagine at 200 yards with a quality rifle and match grade ammo that it should be that difficult.

Using Benelli Momentum 223, 69 Grain Match Grade Ammo, Vortex Venom Scope

Thanks All.

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It's all about consistency and practice. Consistency of your ammunition; consistency of your position, which translates to the consistency of your cheek weld, which translates to the consistency of your sight picture. Consistency of your breathing, when to squeeze the trigger at what point in your breath. Consistency of the weather; humidity, wind/no wind, temperature, elevation. Consistency of the rifle; cold barrel/hot barrel. Quality of the trigger; single stage, 2 stage, lots of creep, or smooth as silk. All those things have to be the same, relative to each other, every shot. What makes a group that covers a quarter at 100 yards, one tiny variation of any of those can destroy that accuracy at 500 yards, change that 1 MOA group into a shotgun pattern further out. A tiny, 1 inch error at 100 yards becomes a 10 inch excursion at 1000.

The practice is to keep all those variables at a minimum every time you go out. Every trigger break should be a surprise when it happens.

Quote with replies;

Now. Is that me, ( partly ) the rifle, or is it just that difficult?( rifle maybe..) ) I can't imagine at 200 yards with a quality rifle and match grade ammo that it should be that difficult. ( it is not difficult at all, 200 yards should be a chip shot)

Using Benelli Momentum 223, 69 Grain Match Grade Ammo, ( match grade for whom ?) Vortex Venom Scope

Here is some truth- a well tuned target rifle using tuned ammunition and I mean tuned for that particular rifle will hit where you aim as long as you or the wind does not influence it otherwise.

MR WICK said:

Is it me or is there an overwhelming amount of precision. . .

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Not overwhelming, just more than you're accustomed to.

Technique that seems impossibly trivial suddenly matters a lot, for reasons that aren't clear. . . that's what learning feels like.

MR WICK said:

I can't imagine at 200 yards with a quality rifle and match grade ammo that it should be that difficult.

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And your imagination is being informed by reality. Cool huh?

wiscoaster said:

It's you, it's the rifle, it's the ammo, it's the setup, it's the technique, it's everything .... all that makes it difficult, and that's what make it fun and interesting and a challenge. It's not that the round goes "wherever it wants" it's that there are so many variables involved and that they are magnified as the distance increases. Yes, it's difficult!! Have a great time overcoming those challenges!! That's what makes life a bitch, and by a very odd coincidence, makes life interesting and fun. You'd be pretty bored with no challenges to overcome.

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Yes. Long or short range accuracy is the result of the total. And long range shooting is very demanding. However, the same characteristics apply to short range (a comparative term of course) shooting as well.

MR WICK said:

Is it me or is there an overwhelming amount of precision that goes into long distance shooting. If I do even the slightest of things different the round goes wherever it wants. The location of the butt of my rifle needs to be in an exact position inbetween my shoulder and pec, the rifle needs to be extended in front of me a certain and specific distance, my trigger finger needs to be in an exact place on the trigger, and the squeeze has to be slow and perfect. Even at 200 yards I need to be exactly spot on with each independent variable or the round goes way off course.


Now. Is that me, the rifle, or is it just that difficult? I can't imagine at 200 yards with a quality rifle and match grade ammo that it should be that difficult.

Using Benelli Momentum 223, 69 Grain Match Grade Ammo, Vortex Venom Scope

Thanks All.

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Personally I would say I need to know just what "goes wherever it wants" means. If at 200 that means 3" away that is one thing, if it means I don't hit paper it is another.

Like others said, it is not hard to hit the torso of a man sized steel plat at 200, if you are calling it a failure if they are all not inside the distance covered by a golf ball, then that is different.

From your post I am taking away you are getting say a 10" group at 200 for example and calling that a failure.

MR WICK said:

Thanks everyone. I appreciate it.

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If you ever get up my way give me a shout out, I’ll put you behind a good rifle and you can shoot mid range ( 500 yard) groups until we run out of ammo.

Rifle: if the rifle can and does shoot small groups, this indicates a reliable relationship between POI and POA, so unless you are changing something about the rifle between, or something breaks, it will continue to shoot that relationship between POI and POA. It’s a machine, machines don’t have bad days and good days.

Ammo: if your ammo can and does shoot small groups, this also indicates reliable relationship between POI and POA, so again, unless something is changing, such as extreme environmental condition changes, then that relationship will also be retained. Ammo is chemistry and physics, both fixed sciences, and God doesn’t change His mind very often about the rules He laid down for how the world works. Ammo which isn’t temp sensitive AND exposed to temperature changes doesn’t have bad days.

Shooter: Everything truly variable about the shooting system is the human element. Humans have good days and bad days. Fighting the rifle, failing to shoot with NPOA, target/group panic, missing wind cues, breaking the shot when not on target/center/hold, etc - these are things humans do to rifles which make good ammo and rifles look bad.

Fundamentals of marksmanship are stated in many ways, but really are all quite simple. Whether you better relate to Aiming, Breath Control, Hold Control, Follow-through or BRASS (Breath, Relax, Aim, Squeeze, Squeeze more), or some other permutation, it’s all the same stuff - we have to support the rifle on target, then minimize our influence to the rifle while we break the shot, and continue supporting the rifle on target thereafter.

This is new for you - marksmen aren’t built in a matter of weeks. Just be patient, and continue practicing the right things, variability will tighten up.

MR WICK said:

Is it me or is there an overwhelming amount of precision that goes into long distance shooting. If I do even the slightest of things different the round goes wherever it wants. The location of the butt of my rifle needs to be in an exact position inbetween my shoulder and pec, the rifle needs to be extended in front of me a certain and specific distance, my trigger finger needs to be in an exact place on the trigger, and the squeeze has to be slow and perfect. Even at 200 yards I need to be exactly spot on with each independent variable or the round goes way off course.


Now. Is that me, the rifle, or is it just that difficult? I can't imagine at 200 yards with a quality rifle and match grade ammo that it should be that difficult.

Using Benelli Momentum 223, 69 Grain Match Grade Ammo, Vortex Venom Scope

Thanks All.

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The OP really has not come back and cleared some things up, I for one would like to know just what he is trying to hit. To me some of the replies are making it much more difficult sounding then I think it is. I can plop my butt down, set down my CZ 223 with a Tasco scope on top of my range bag and ding the 8" plate all day long with crap tastic steel case ammo I am trying to burn. It is not that hard and does not take a huge investment to do that. Now if I am going for the 2" tear drop plate that is a different matter with that ammo.

To me it just sounds like some are making hitting at distance seem like a real big deal, guess it comes down to the size of the thing you are trying to hit....I never did see or missed that from the OP.

And remember practice does not make perfect. Practice makes permanent. perfect practice makes perfect. You may want to find a shooting coach, good coach will notice things you are doing wrong that you don't. It is really hard to correct something you don't know you are doing wrong.

For me,it's a never ending journey.I try to improve and tune the rifle and the ammunition.I try to have a good relationship with the optic and improve it when I can.I've improved the things I can as far as the equipment goes,but the most important part of the equation is me.I started reloading and shooting more seriously than just trying to be able to shoot a deer at 100 yards in 77 or 78.I've been doing this for a very long time and my shooting has improved a lot over the years.The first rifle I loaded for was a cheaper version of the Winchester M70 known as the 670 that was chambered in .243.I struggled to shoot groups smaller than 2 and a half inches at 100 yards.Long range was a 200 yard shot at a groundhog.As time passed my shooting improved,as did the equipment I used.Groundhogs at 3 or 400 yards were in great danger when I built my first custom rifle,a 25-06.That was in the early 90's.Around 2010 I got bit hard by the long range bug.I was trying to ring steel with a 308 at 1,000 yards.Nowadays,I'm still trying to do that,and I'm getting pretty good at it,especially with the 280AI I put together summer before last.My personal best 100 yard group is a .103 inch 5 shot group at 100 yards,which is a lot better that what I could do with the old Winchester all those years ago.What makes it better is that the rifle I shot it with was assembled and tuned and shot by me.When I make that 16 inch steel plate swing at 1,000 yards,it's just like killing a big buck used to be.I hardly kill anything any more,but the satisfaction that comes from improving and growing and cultivating what little talent I have is a great feeling.Because of how hard good rifle bullets are to find now,I've started working on my skills with the pistol.All offhand,iron sights with no rest shooting that is humbling to say the least,but still fun as hell,and that's what it's all about.That's why I love it.

Earth.....turning
Wind......blowing
Fire....... consistent amounts and steady nerves

Hmmm.....was a band back in the day too I think-

LoonWulf said:

Just took my dad to some long distance shooting he couldn't get consistent impacts till we worked out his position so he was aligned properly and comfortably.....or as comfortable as you can get using the last hash in a scope cranked right to max lol.

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Can't agree with this more.

Comfort to the point where your rifle nestles just right into your shoulder and beanbag, wherein your breathing doesn't jostle the reticle as much...

...it's all about comfort and a little bit of trigger control.

Get comfortable and send a few..

South Prairie Jim said:

Get comfortable and send a few..

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There was this video of someone who blasted their tail lights away, or something like that - circumstances similar to that picture up there