What Makes A Knife A "Fighting Knife"?

Night Rider said:

The Eks knife specifically appears to have been a very popular knife among people who actually fought people with knives.

If that particular knife had persistent known issues with people injuring themselves with it I'm guessing they would have quit using it.

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"Fought people with knives". Really? it's relatively rare to shoot at the enemy with a rifle, much less close to knife distance. You know who was most likely to probably be that close?

Marines. And they largely seem to have been happy with their fighting knives, which have a guard.

I have a Eks model. I like it. It has a guard.

You're seriously asking me why people going to war might want a knife? Maybe you should rephrase your question.

Anything *can* work. In general, I've always liked Eks because they seem purposeful, and not overheavy. The one I have has a lot of cutting potential for a knife that weighs as little as it does.

I think John Ek believed a guard wasn't necessary, and then eventually believed that people wanted one, so he added it.

Wasp waisted profiles really can help get a good hold on a knife, but I'm a firm believer in things going wrong if they can. A guard is easy insurance.

"Fought people with knives". Really? it's relatively rare to shoot at the enemy with a rifle, much less close to knife distance.

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This is why I did not hit Post Reply on the long response I typed in yesterday.

People who have actually fought with knives in combat (not talking about prison or back-alley stabbings) are extremely rare--at least they have been for the last century or so. That means there's precious little experience based information about the actual combat use of knives.

That, in turn, means that it's relatively easy to be an expert because there are no real experts to contradict you if you make the claim. Make a knife and call it a combat knife, you're an expert on combat knives. Write a book about knife combat and you're an expert on combat knives. Buy a knife company and you're an expert on combat knives.

I know what I would want in a combat knife, but if I post a list of features and someone wants me to back the list up with my qualifications in the field of knife combat, I can't do it. The fact that essentially every other person on the planet on the planet is in exactly the same boat won't really matter at that point.

I think there's a lot of good general purpose information out there on what works and what doesn't in knives. A person who doesn't want to spend a lifetime collecting it, can get a knife they think is a good combat knife and then go out and spend hours chopping and stabbing things with it in a lot of widely varying conditions. It's a lot more work to do it that way, but it's quicker than spending years studying the topic and is still a good way to learn some valuable lessons.

Here's a quasi-interesting and peripherally related story. Years ago, I bought a knife that I liked. I can't remember how it came up, but I ended up showing it to my folks. My mom looked at it but was clearly not interested in it at all, which I thought was kind of unusual. I asked her what she thought of it and she just made some polite noise, but again I could tell something was up. So I pressed her and she told me that when she was young and single she had worked in a plant that processed chickens. She spent a lot of time with a knife cutting meat and bone in conditions where her hands were slippery. She didn't like the knife for three reasons. The handle was nearly round which made it hard to index and made it easy for it to turn in the hand. The handle was slick. The knife was made so that if your hand slipped forward at all, it was going to get onto the blade--there was no guard or other feature that positively retained the hand on the handle.

I thought it was an interesting perspective. The other features of the knife really didn't matter to her because of the problems with the handle. It made me look at knives a bit differently from then on. Of course, cutting up chickens is probably a lot more strenuous and potentially dangerous than knife combat so I don't think anyone should read anything into the story.

"And at an angle"- fall back quickly, at a 45' angle.

my beliefs have been shaped by a lot of things, including historical perspective, most of a lifetime of Martial arts, 20 years as a member of the Army, and killing things with knives.

First, efficacy. A precisely aimed stab with a large blade can end a fight instantly. I have killed downed but still struggling deer like this. Next, practicality. The ability to get that precise stab in a real confrontation isn't a given. The other super quick way to end an attack quickly, is to chop off large parts of the attacker. Chopping in a life and death confrontation makes sense, because under adrenaline, fine motor skills are one of the first things people lose.

I designed a large knife with Sam Owens years ago, which I called the Camp Defender. I believe the things that make a good large outdoors knife, are some of the same things that will make that same blade wickedly effective should you ever have to use one to defend yourself. So this large knife has a point that can effectively thrust, but has weight enough forward to make it extremely effective as a chopper. And, it has some protection from your hand slipping or running onto the blade.

This is a subject I've talked a lot about in the past, but I believe most deployed service members need a good deployment knife. This is a reasonably sized blade that can do a lot of things well, but the important thing, is that it must be instantly accessible, and it can't be overly large. The first modern war saw many of the side known for their fighting abilities leave for battle with enormous knives. Most of these knives were abandoned as they marched.

I have used a knife several times during combat, and I have been in a situation where a squad member nearly escaped injury, because I couldn't get to my blade under my rain gear in time. When I did use my knife during a fight, it was to help get my primary weapon system back into operation.

So my beliefs, based on how wars are now fought, and the load US fighting people carry, is that a smallish versatile knife that's instantly accessible is what most deployed service members need. For those of you who don't know, besides being completely impractical with all the other gear we have to carry, the US in the last 15 years has severely restricted the ability of most combat troops to carry large "aggressive" knives.

The prototype compact fighting knife that I linked to earlier, was designed with a lot of feedback from one of my martial art instructors. This NCO deployed several times in situations where he and another service member would frequently go out by themselves, which is not at all typical, if you're familiar with combat operations. it doesn't have a long stabbing blade, because that can't fit into the mission profile. it does have a handle offering protection from cutting yourself, a rounded but so you're not likely to injure yourself by falling on it, and a very wide blade with serrations on the back for a back cut, or cutting yourself free of webbing and ex-filling a vehicle.

Just like carrying around a full-sized shotgun or AR-15 is not practical in most situations, carrying the blade that would be most effective if needed against a deadly threat is just not practical. I was the exception to most soldiers in my infantry company, in that I was one of only two who carried a very large knife. I got permission from my first line NCO to carry it instead of an e-tool, because my primary mission in that company was a mortarman. As a mortarman, we might need to cut sight lanes through tall grass, so there was a legitimate need for a large blade- in fact, we had a machete issued to us as part of the squad gear.

We carry firearms for a reason. I started seriously training in ways to kill my fellow man with a blade in 1994. I believe I can confidently say I have much more experience training with a blade than most folks here. I sincerely believe there is a place for defensive and offensive blades, but when we have the option, a modern firearm is what we should reach for.

John

Night Rider said:

Interesting video review of the KBar EKs knife.

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Speaking to my point that these were dedicated FIGHTING knives*. USMC "fighting knives" are actually a much heavier design that also works against human threats.

*"purposeful" is how I described it earlier. It's light for its length because it's not designed to attack trees.

Speedo66 said:

View attachment 1085441
Is an issued combat knife, not bayonet, automatically, by definition, a fighting knife?

This one was manufactured by PAL, the razor blade people, WWII issue.

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Most US issued knives have been fairly general purpose knives, that also could be used against people if needed. Let's put this in context: I have used knives during fire missions to cut my way into "tootsie roll" mortar round carriers, I've used my knife to chop open the bands around ammo crates, and I've even used a blade to pry a frozen 120 mm shell out of a case. These were definitely things that happened in combat, but I didn't need a so-called "fighting knife" for them.


I used this Spyderco some of the time. Other times, like the steel band and prying the 120mm round, I used my custom Shane Justice.


Neither of these knives look like what most people consider fighting knives, though I promise the Justice would be devastating if used that way.



The knife on the left started as one of Don (@Valkman's) Land Sharks. Sam modified the handle. It's my idea of what a good deployment blade should be. The Spyderco Manix 2 XL is the first folder I would use, if I had to defend myself with one. And the little knife in the middle, ironically, is the only "fighting knife" in this post, being expressly designed for self-defense. Notice how the ARK is designed to keep the user's hand safe while keeping a minimalistic profile.

John

@Gordon, any chance we can get a pic of your Camp Defender next to a couple other knives, for scale?

JShirley said:

includes a guard.

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They should include a stop for the users hand. A small guard, finger choil, forward grip swell, or any sort of feature to keep the user's hand from sliding forward. Regardless of the effectiveness in a grip that doesn't incorporate these (like Ek's "pig sticker"), adding the insurance of a stop against sliding onto the blade if the user's grip falter just makes sense (as John Ek did after WWII).

hso said:

They should include a stop for the users hand. A small guard, finger choil, forward grip swell, or any sort of feature to keep the user's hand from sliding forward. Regardless of the effectiveness in a grip that doesn't incorporate these (like Ek's "pig sticker"), adding the insurance of a stop against sliding onto the blade should the user's grip falters just makes sense (as John Ek did after WWII).

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Yes, your description is more accurate, thank you.

Gordon said:

Here is My Camp Defender when it was new and the Valkman "Fighter" when new !

View attachment 1085474

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I have used kukris a lot, and I like a heavy-dury chopper. To me, the Camp Defender is big enough to be instantly effective, yet not too big to carry for a dedicated outdoors knife. I think a knife this size is a luxury that the modern Soldier cannot afford. Knives this size were too big for the Civil War soldier, and we carry even more weight and gear today.