Supreme Court Issues Final Ruling: NYSRPA v. Bruen

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2. The 43 states that are shall issue, are untouched.
OK, the opinion talks about 43 states that are shall-issue, and 6 states that are may-issue (which by virtue of this decision are being converted into shall-issue). By my arithmetic that's 49 states that have some form of permit system. That leaves only one state with permitless carry. That can't be right -- there are actually quite a few states with permitless carry. Or are they including "optional" permits for reciprocity purposes in the shall-issue total?
 
@Styx “It's already being done. NYC is already planning on making darn near every place they can think of as being a "sensitive places."

Just wondering how you know this? I know a few still in charge and have not heard anything. All I have heard is from the Police Commissioner who announced that until they get this figured out if you have a “Premise” Permit it has not changed. City Counsel cannot do this as it is State Law, the Sullivan Act which is Tammany Hall law is now defunct.
The governor and others stated as much weeks ago. That they have a plan in place if SCOTUS rules against them. Part of that plan was to expand the sensitive places where carry will be illegal. They mentioned the Subway and public transportation, concerts, parades, etc. They also stated that they are going to make it illegal to keep a gun in your car unattended. That means if you are armed, you can't travel via public transportation (which most in NYC does), and if you drive a prohibited area/venue armed, you can't leave your firearm in your car. This will basically cause people to leave their firearms at home.
 
The governor and others stated as much weeks ago. That they have a plan in place if SCOTUS rules against them. Part of that plan was to expand the sensitive places where carry will be illegal. They mentioned the Subway and public transportation, concerts, parades, etc. They also stated that they are going to make it illegal to keep a gun in your car unattended. That means if you are armed, you can't travel via public transportation (which most in NYC does), and if you drive a prohibited area/venue armed, you can't leave your firearm in your car. This will basically cause people to leave their firearms at home.
Cannot leave a gun in the car right now. All Concert venues are private property and have already been “no gun zones”. Even though not many walking around Manhattan carrying there are signs on just about every store, restaurant, etc. It’s NYC! So it sounds like a lot but it’s the usual nonsense. The Subway Is MTA as are the buses, almost a private entity but tax payer and Federal funded so that’s a legal hurdle. I am looking forward to going in with my wife Monday, definitely gonna be interesting to see what my County guys have to say!
 
Going to be hard to overcome the dicta in Thomas's opinion: "That said, respondents’ attempt to characterize New York’s proper-cause requirement as a “sensitive-place” law lacks merit because there is no historical basis for New York to effectively declare the island of Manhattan a “sensitive place” simply because it is crowded and protected generally by the New York City Police Department."
Well to that I'd say that Heller clearly says in plan English that weapons in common use are protected by 2A from being banned, yet over 10 years after Heller, the most popular sporting rifles (assault weapons) are still banned. Other states have recently banned them and/or standard capacity magazines. Seems like they found a way around Heller just fine.
 
Cannot leave a gun in the car right now. All Concert venues are private property and have already been “no gun zones”. Even though not many walking around Manhattan carrying there are signs on just about every store, restaurant, etc. It’s NYC! So it sounds like a lot but it’s the usual nonsense. The Subway Is MTA as are the buses, almost a private entity but tax payer and Federal funded so that’s a legal hurdle. I am looking forward to going in with my wife Monday, definitely gonna be interesting to see what my County guys have to say!
Then there will basically be no point of carrying in NYC. Everything will be off limits, and carrying into a no gun zone will carry the force of law.
 
This article from The Trace lays out some ways NY is planning to get around the ruling:
https://www.thetrace.org/2022/06/supreme-court-ruling-bruen-new-york/
SCOTUS Says People Have a Right to Carry Guns in Public

In striking down New York’s “good cause” permitting law, the justices set a precedent that may imperil licensing regimes in at least five other states.

The Trace is the nation’s only newsroom dedicated to covering gun violence full-time. Sign up for our newsletters to stay informed.

In a landmark decision, the Supreme Court struck down New York’s restrictive firearms licensing law, a decision that could transform gun ownership in New York City and affect at least five other states with similar regulations. In a 6-3 ruling, the court’s conservative majority endorsed, for the first time, a constitutional right to carry a gun in self-defense outside the home.

New York State Rifle & Pistol Association v. Bruen is the Supreme Court’s first major Second Amendment ruling since 2010, when the Court struck down Chicago’s handgun ban. Writing for the majority, conservative Justice Clarence Thomas said Americans have a two-part right to “keep” guns in their homes and “bear” them in public.

“This definition of ‘bear’ naturally encompasses public carry,” Thomas wrote. “Most gun owners do not wear a holstered pistol at their hip in their bedroom or while sitting at the dinner table.”

The scope of the decision had been anticipated following the leak in May of a draft opinion voiding federal abortion protections. Legal experts told us at the time that the apparent sidestepping of precedent in that draft document, Dobbs v. Jackson Women’s Health Organization, could signal a similarly wide ruling in Bruen. The court did not go as far as calling into question all licensing schemes, including the 43 states that have “shall-issue” permitting laws, but it did leave the door open for potential challenges.

“Because these licensing regimes do not require applicants to show an atypical need for armed self-defense, they do not necessarily prevent ‘law-abiding, responsible citizens’ from exercising their Second Amendment right to public carry,” Thomas wrote.

“It’s going to have huge impacts because the court changed the entire standard for evaluating Second Amendment claims,” said Jake Charles, the executive director of the Duke Center for Firearms Law. “It’s much broader than I was expecting it to be.”

The decision also rewrites the methodology federal courts use when deciding Second Amendment cases. Since 2008’s District of Columbia v. Heller, which established that the Second Amendment includes the right to bear arms in the home, lower courts judging contested firearms legislation have considered whether a particular law furthers the government’s interests in things like reducing crime in addition to historical precedent.

“We know of no other constitutional right that an individual may exercise only after demonstrating to government officials some special need,” Thomas wrote.

With today’s ruling, the six conservative SCOTUS justices are saying that modern-day gun problems are irrelevant when deciding the constitutionality of a law. Instead, the government must now demonstrate that the regulation is consistent with the country’s historical tradition of firearm regulation.

“It’s not entirely clear what it will look like in practice, but it is clear that courts are not going to be able to take into account things that they have done under the current framework,” Charles said. “They’re not going to be concerned about things like, ‘Does this law actually reduce gun violence?’ Those are just going to be irrelevant to courts going forward.”

The Bruen decision comes nine years after the Supreme Court refused to take on a similar case challenging New York’s “proper cause” requirement. That reflects how quickly the bench’s composition has changed the direction of Second Amendment jurisprudence. Until the confirmation of Justice Amy Coney Barrett, a Trump appointee who gave the Court its 6-3 conservative majority in 2020, the justices interested in hearing Second Amendment cases did not have enough votes. “This case was taken by the Supreme Court because of the addition of the Trump justices: [Neil] Gorsuch, [Brett] Kavanaugh, and Barrett,” Adam Winkler, a law professor at the University of California, Los Angeles, told The Trace last year. “They have changed the calculus on the Court.”

The Bruen case was brought by the New York State Rifle & Pistol Association, the state affiliate of the National Rifle Association, and two residents of upstate Rensselaer County. In 2018, Robert Nash, who had a pistol permit that allowed him to carry a concealed gun for hunting only, sued the state after his request to remove the permit’s limitations was denied on the grounds that he didn’t demonstrate a proper cause for self-defense. State law doesn’t spell out what “proper cause” means, but a state appeals court defined it as a heightened need for self-protection in one’s community or in the course of one’s work. Nash was joined in the suit by NYSRPA and Brandon Koch, another Rensselaer County resident who was denied a permit.

“They have taken away our rights to have reasonable restrictions,” New York Governor Kathy Hochul said Thursday after the decision came down. “I’m sorry this dark day has come.”

A year and a half before Bruen was submitted to SCOTUS, another case brought by NYSRPA was expected to make Supreme Court precedent: a 2019 challenge to New York City’s ban on transporting a licensed handgun to a home or shooting range outside the five boroughs. Prior to oral arguments, city officials, fearful of a ruling that could loosen gun laws nationwide, struck the provision. SCOTUS agreed to hear the case anyway, but ultimately dismissed it as moot.

How will this change gun laws in other states?

Seven other states — California, Connecticut, Delaware, Hawaii, Maryland, Massachusetts, and New Jersey — and the District of Columbia have similar may-issue laws, which give authorities discretion to deny permits to applicants. In practice, however, Connecticut and Delaware act more like shall-issue regimes, requiring applicants to meet only basic qualifications to receive a license. With this decision, the five other may-issue states with stricter regulations will soon likely need to stop requiring that applicants demonstrate a justifiable need to carry a concealed weapon.

Twenty-five states don’t require permits to carry concealed guns, but still issue permits for people who want them. They’re also required if you want to take your gun into most other states. This ruling does not immediately affect those regulations, nor the 17 shall-issue states that issue permits to applicants who meet a set of basic requirements.

How will this change gun laws in NYC?

Ahead of the decision, Hochul and New York Mayor Eric Adams expressed alarm at the prospect of more guns on the streets, and said they were looking at limiting the places where firearms could be carried. In the event that the ruling voided part or all of the state’s permit requirements, lawmakers in Albany vowed to call a special session to craft legislation limiting the number of concealed carry permits in circulation. The New York Police Department, meanwhile, says it has a plan to limit the number of guns in civilian hands.

It’s unclear just how the decision will affect the city’s permit issuing scheme in practice. New York lawmakers are likely to revamp the law and could put in place more objective criteria to limit the scope of who can carry in public.

The NYPD, which issues handgun permits to city residents, goes far beyond making gun permit seekers show “proper cause.” Its gun licensing unit requires applicants to furnish photographs and fingerprints; provide the names of employers and domestic partners; submit business records; and designate someone to take custody of their weapon in the event of their death. The application includes a nonrefundable fee of over $400. The city has long credited its strict gun laws with keeping its homicide rate lower than that of most other big cities.

“The reality is that other states that have gone to unrestricted carry licenses have had a shared experience of people who can’t bring them in certain places, leaving them in cars and the guns being stolen in car break-ins,” John Miller, the NYPD’s deputy commissioner for intelligence and counterterrorism, told CBS New York. “That just recycles legal guns into the hands of criminals.”

CBS New York has reported that 1,700 city residents have NYPD-issued concealed carry licenses, and 1,400 people from elsewhere in the state have permission to carry in the five boroughs. Another 773 business owners can keep guns at work, and 2,403 people can carry guns while working but must leave the weapon at their place of business. At least 16,462 city residents have a license that allows them to keep a gun at home.

Losing “proper cause” might not change much in the city, at least not right away. A helpful analogue could be Washington, D.C., where a “good cause” requirement was voided by a federal appeals court in 2017. Since then, at least 8,800 permits have been issued, and law enforcement claims it hasn’t had a measurable effect on crime. There’s a long list of places Washingtonians can’t carry, including on public transit. New York City would likely implement similar restrictions.

“We have been preparing for this decision and will continue to do everything possible to work with our federal, state, and local partners to protect our city. Those efforts will include a comprehensive review of our approach to defining ‘sensitive locations’ where carrying a gun is banned, and reviewing our application process to ensure that only those who are fully qualified can obtain a carry license,” New York City Mayor Eric Adams said in a statement after the ruling. “We will work together to mitigate the risks this decision will create once it is implemented, as we cannot allow New York to become the Wild West.”

The NYPD could also make it prohibitively difficult to seek a permit — by raising the application fee, requiring exams, or mandating range training. But activists would likely file lawsuits seeking to overturn those requirements.

The NYPD’s licensing division has had its share of controversy, most notably a bribery scandal in 2017. The office could soon be swamped with applications, and will be under heightened scrutiny.

What we don’t know

The Bruen decision leaves open many questions about how this will play out on the ground. Lower courts will now have to figure out how to implement a new standard of review for gun regulations, and though the decision leaves in place the permitting schemes of 43 shall-issue states, it does provide a potential playbook for those hoping to challenge such laws.

“That said, because any permitting scheme can be put toward abusive ends, we do not rule out constitutional challenges to shall-issue regimes where, for example, lengthy wait times in processing license applications or exorbitant fees deny ordinary citizens their right to public carry,” the opinion states.

The court also did not provide a clear answer about what constitutes a “sensitive place” where the carrying of guns can be prohibited. It endorsed a few examples, like legislative assemblies, polling places, and courthouses, but said lower courts will need to use historical analogies to determine what qualifies as a sensitive place today.

What questions do you have about this Supreme Court ruling?

Submit your query to Ask The Trace or hit us up on Twitter.
 
That can't be right -- there are actually quite a few states with permitless carry. Or are they including "optional" permits for reciprocity purposes in the shall-issue total?

I would have to say they are counting states that have constitutional carry (no permit required) but still issue permits for those that want one.

I know Missouri falls into this category. We finally got constitutional carry a few years ago but still have the option to get a CCW permit if we want. I still renew my permit every 5 years since it allows me to carry in other states that recognize Missouri's permits. And the main reason that I maintain my CW permit is that it gives me a lot more legal protection here in Missouri versus not having a permit.
 
OK, the opinion talks about 43 states that are shall-issue, and 6 states that are may-issue (which by virtue of this decision are being converted into shall-issue). By my arithmetic that's 49 states that have some form of permit system. That leaves only one state with permitless carry. That can't be right -- there are actually quite a few states with permitless carry. Or are they including "optional" permits for reciprocity purposes in the shall-issue total?
Chalk up Arkansas as "optional." We have a CHCL, and an Enhanced CHCL, but we also allow permitless carry. That's the result of Act 746 of 2013, if memory serves. I'm not convinced that our General Assembly really intended to make us a permitless carry state, but that's what they did.
 
OK, the opinion talks about 43 states that are shall-issue, and 6 states that are may-issue (which by virtue of this decision are being converted into shall-issue). By my arithmetic that's 49 states that have some form of permit system. That leaves only one state with permitless carry. That can't be right -- there are actually quite a few states with permitless carry. Or are they including "optional" permits for reciprocity purposes in the shall-issue total?
This is addressed in the footnote on page 5 of the opinion (which is a continuation of footnote 1 on page 4, omitted here) (Emphasis added):

704.5 (2022); Va. Code Ann. §18.2–308.04 (2021); Wash. Rev. Code §9.41.070 (2021); W. Va. Code Ann. §61–7–4 (2021); Wis. Stat. §175.60 (2021); Wyo. Stat. Ann. §6–8–104 (2021). Vermont has no permitting system for the concealed carry of handguns. Three States—Connecticut, Delaware, and Rhode Island—have discretionary criteria but appear to operate like “shall issue” jurisdictions. See Conn. Gen. Stat. §29–28(b) (2021); Del. Code, Tit. 11, §1441 (2022); R. I. Gen. Laws §11–47–11 (2002). Although Connecticut officials have discretion to deny a concealed-carry permit to anyone who is not a “suitable person,” see Conn. Gen. Stat. §29–28(b), the “suitable person” standard precludes permits only to those “individuals whose conduct has shown them to be lacking the essential character of temperament necessary to be entrusted with a weapon.” Dwyer v. Farrell, 193 Conn. 7, 12, 475 A. 2d 257, 260 (1984) (internal quotation marks omitted). As for Delaware, the State has thus far processed 5,680 license applications and renewals in fiscal year 2022 and has denied only 112. See Del. Courts, Super. Ct., Carrying Concealed Deadly Weapon (June 9, 2022), https://courts.delaware.gov/forms/download.aspx?ID=125408. Moreover, Delaware appears to have no licensing requirement for open carry. Finally, Rhode Island has a suitability requirement, see R. I. Gen. Laws §11–47–11, but the Rhode Island Supreme Court has flatly denied that the “[d]emonstration of a proper showing of need” is a component of that requirement. Gadomski
v. Tavares, 113 A. 3d 387, 392 (2015).
Additionally, some “shall issue” jurisdictions have so-called “constitutional carry” protections that allow certain individuals to carry handguns in public within the State without any permit whatsoever. See, e.g., A. Sherman, More States Remove Permit Requirement To Carry a Concealed Gun, PolitiFact (Apr. 12, 2022),https://www.politifact.com/article/2022/apr/12/more-states-remove-permit-requirement-carry-concea/ (“Twenty-five states now have permitless concealed carry laws . . . The states that have approved permitless carry laws are: Alabama, Alaska, Arizona, Arkansas, Idaho, Indiana, Iowa, Georgia, Kansas, Kentucky, Maine, Mississippi, Missouri, Montana, New Hampshire, North Dakota, Ohio, Oklahoma, South Dakota, Tennessee, Texas, Utah, Vermont, West Virginia, and Wyoming”).
 
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The governor and others stated as much weeks ago. That they have a plan in place if SCOTUS rules against them. Part of that plan was to expand the sensitive places where carry will be illegal. They mentioned the Subway and public transportation, concerts, parades, etc. They also stated that they are going to make it illegal to keep a gun in your car unattended. That means if you are armed, you can't travel via public transportation (which most in NYC does), and if you drive a prohibited area/venue armed, you can't leave your firearm in your car. This will basically cause people to leave their firearms at home.

Don't you think these restrictions will be challenged based on yesterday's decision?

In lots of states your car is considered an extension of your home.
 
Going to be hard to overcome the dicta in Thomas's opinion: "That said, respondents’ attempt to characterize New York’s proper-cause requirement as a “sensitive-place” law lacks merit because there is no historical basis for New York to effectively declare the island of Manhattan a “sensitive place” simply because it is crowded and protected generally by the New York City Police Department."

Exactly, no different from a locale saying gay marriage doesn't apply there.
 
I'll let @Spats McGee or one of the other real lawyers comment on that but, as I understand it, the voting law cases have already established case law and proper precedent to strike down any undo burden or tax whose intent or function is to limit the individual rights of citizens to practice Constitutionally protected activities - like voting. I could be wrong and, to your point, breaking the law or violating an oath of office is simply business-as-usual in the context of Democratic-Socialism. Let's not forget that, under this system of governance, there is no God, therefore no God-given rights, and no morality, therefore no moral obligations; especially not to surrender power in order to treat one's fellow Man fairly.

Exactly, it is the difference between Natural Law, on which our legal system was founded, and Case Law, where the law is whatever five justices have decided, generally after sticking their finger in the wind of public opinion.
 
Then there will basically be no point of carrying in NYC. Everything will be off limits, and carrying into a no gun zone will carry the force of law.
I spend time in nyc for work and I can’t say I agree with this. I saw what you are talking about with “no gun signs” in Chicago when they got CHL. Believe me there will be a lot of no gun signs in nyc. However I would rather avoid those places than not have the option. This is a huge win. Not just for NY.
 
I spend time in nyc for work and I can’t say I agree with this. I saw what you are talking about with “no gun signs” in Chicago when they got CHL. Believe me there will be a lot of no gun signs in nyc. However I would rather avoid those places than not have the option. This is a huge win. Not just for NY.
I was born and raised in NYC. Lived in the Bronx and Mt Vernon, and attended a private school in Manhattan. My opinion is that unless you are visiting a friend or going for a walk in the NYC far away from schools, churches, police stations, etc, there's not really going to be much to do or anywhere else to go. I also see them harrasing and making examples out of gun owners who inadvertently break one of the minefield of laws on the books as an deterrent.
 
Exactly, it is the difference between Natural Law, on which our legal system was founded, and Case Law, where the law is whatever five justices have decided, generally after sticking their finger in the wind of public opinion.
Actually the Constitution is based on several different books and charters one being the Magna Carta and the Bible the code of Hammurabi and several other prominent works through out history this document wasn't written in a month it took years before it was finalized and ratified
 
The combination of having major retailers and other popular private locations being able to ban carry with the force of law and the inability to leave guns in the car negates most carry. The penalties will be important. Will it be a trepass warning, a minor misdemeanor but with permit cancellation, a felony? In a practical sense, those of us in the more lenient counties might lose practical carry rights.

This might be another Heller example of not going far enough and not covering the obvious bases. I know this is complaining about a good thing but we have to see how the unintended consequences play out. I never understand why progun justices cannot make clear and decisive expansions of gun rights and don't think through the attempts to negate their intent. Ego, tendency to blather ?
 
I read your cited reference. It's a fringe site. I had to stop myself from bursting out laughing.

The "Natural Law" theory actually undermines the fight for the RKBA. If we believe that rights are inherent, or are mandated from On High, then we don't have to lift a finger to assure them. They're just handed to us. No, every right that we have was wrested by people from their reluctant rulers. (The same rulers that based their rule on the Divine Right of Kings.) The Founding Fathers are a prime example of such a struggle. (And don't put much stock in the words of the Declaration of Independence -- which, BTW, has no legal effect. Jefferson was a consummate propagandist and hypocrite.)
 
I was born and raised in NYC. Lived in the Bronx and Mt Vernon, and attended a private school in Manhattan. My opinion is that unless you are visiting a friend or going for a walk in the NYC far away from schools, churches, police stations, etc, there's not really going to be much to do or anywhere else to go. I also see them harrasing and making examples out of gun owners who inadvertently break one of the minefield of laws on the books as an deterrent.
Just to give you some background, I was a Supervisor of a Manhattan Detective Squad when I retired. Not only do I know the city I know a bit about the laws. I also am fairly well versed in the NYPD’s Pistol Licensing process execution.
You first have to separate NYC from the rest of the state. NYC is by far the worst abuser of the permit system in the state. There have been corruption scandals many times over the years, unless you are Robert DeNiro of Donald Trump and Unrestricted Carry Permit is almost impossible to obtain, as in maybe a 1000 in a population of 8 Million. Premise and Business permits are also difficult but somewhat more common. The system was always designed to discourage applications. It’s a throw back to Tammany Hall when those in power would only allow those with power to legally be armed. Permits from other NY Counties that were unrestricted we’re not honored in NYC let alone other States all under the Sullivan Act.
The rest of the state varies, some counties would issue life long carry permits no problem, others varying degrees of restrictions. This is what was just thrown out.
If anyone expects NYC to embrace concealed carry by the masses they are in for a big surprise. As it stands Off Duty Cops cannot carry at the Ground Zero Memorial (no kidding). I don’t know if one Broadway Theater that will allow you to carry on their premises. Forget a Stadium, Sports Event or Concert Venue. We all know Schools are out no matter the state. So if you add Government Buildings which already have restrictions there is not many places that you can go anyway! The thing to remember is it is NYC they will do what they do and the people there will be fine with it. Very few residents have been in this country more than a decade. It’s easy to say remember 9/11 and then you realize that 2/3 of the population was not in this country at that time.
Again the rest of the state has a gun culture, can be fairly conservative and will have no problem lifting the restrictions as they were only following the law. The smaller cities, suburban counties and rural areas will take this seriously.
This is a big win for NY and although I did not realize the impact it would have on other similar states I am very pleased that they will benefit from this as well. It will take a good amount of time for the dust to settle, new guidelines be drawn up and they will resist it all the way. Things will be challenged along the way. There is a big conservative movement in the state and hopefully that has some long term impact as well. I say it a bunch but Constitutional Concealed Carry is fairly new for a good part of this Country. I lived in Virginia in the 80’s and the only people allowed to carry a handgun was law enforcement or a friend of a Sheriff. It just wasn’t done. It’s an evolution, positive movement in the right direction. Never gonna be perfect but it will be better.
 
I was a Supervisor of a Manhattan Detective Squad ... The system was always designed to discourage applications ... The rest of the state varies, some counties would issue life long carry permits no problem, others varying degrees of restrictions. This is what was just thrown out.

... This is a big win for NY and although I did not realize the impact it would have on other similar states I am very pleased that they will benefit from this as well.
Nice and thank you for your post.
 
Just a minor nit. Federal law exempts concealed pistol license holders from the Gun Free School Zones act, where state law then takes over.

Several states allow some form of firearms carry on school grounds by CPL holders.

https://www.ncsl.org/research/education/school-safety-guns-in-schools.aspx
I did not know this, NY it’s already verboten as is storing a handgun in the car unattended. Kind of what I was thinking is that there won’t be a 180 more like a 45 degree shift.
 
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