A question for the Old Guards in reloading.

GeoDudeFlorida said:

I'm waiting for the answer to this question before commenting on any piece of specific gear.
To get an idea, I started reloading on a Lyman Spartan C-press. I used Lee and home-made dippers, a school lab surplus triple-beam scale (measuring in grams and converting), and a steel rule marked in 0.010" graduations. I hardly ever used the scale. Didn't need to. I was reloading Speer and Sierra .38Spl and .357Mag, seating to the crimp groove. No cast, no no-name bullets, no need to measure anything. I used two powders: Bullseye and Unique. I reloaded 6 or 12 rounds at a time using standing-pat recipes. For revolver and rifles with a cannelure for seating, you don't need a measuring tool other than your chamber.

So, @AJC1 's question hits the nail on the head: before I can answer I need to know what you're doing and how much experience you already have.

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This is all he asked’
I have two questions for you fellas.

1) What are the most cost effective tools/equipment to make quality ammunition?
Example, I understand consistent powder loads create consistent ammo. Is an electric powder dispenser worth the money or stick to a balance beam and trickler. What items stretch your dollar the furthest for quality ammunition?

2) What is the equipment on your bench that isn’t necessary but you can’t imagine living without nowadays?
The equipment that aids in the enjoyment of reloading.

South Prairie Jim said:

This is all he asked’
I have two questions for you fellas.

1) What are the most cost effective tools/equipment to make quality ammunition?
Example, I understand consistent powder loads create consistent ammo. Is an electric powder dispenser worth the money or stick to a balance beam and trickler. What items stretch your dollar the furthest for quality ammunition?

2) What is the equipment on your bench that isn’t necessary but you can’t imagine living without nowadays?
The equipment that aids in the enjoyment of reloading.

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Yup. Read it. Comprehendo mucho bueno, gracias.

"Is an electric powder dispenser worth the money or stick to a balance beam and trickler." - Don't know. Depends. Is he loading for BR competition or blamo-ammo? I use Lee dippers and a 5-0-5. Works for me but I don't think it would for a shooter like ol' Walkalong or Slamfire, to name a couple of examples.

"What is the equipment on your bench that isn’t necessary but you can’t imagine living without nowadays?"
Well, the only one I can think of is the press and dies. Other than them, like I said above, I don't even need a set of calipers or a scale if all I'm loading is .38Spl and .357Mag. When I stepped up to .30-30 and .30-06 I started thinking using my high-dollar, Starrett and Mitutoyo machinist tools for checking length was just the best thing since sliced bread. Didn't even think about using something "lower cost."

Sometimes the most cost effective is pricey, sometimes it's cheap, depends mostly on THE USER and their skill level. Can't tell anything about the OP's skill level from his posts so far.

Picking on the claim and not the claimant, because the perspective isn’t unique to this individual:

I will not measure powder charges on an electronic scale. I consider it a disaster waiting to happen.

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This perspective is ridiculous, despite its popularity among a subset of reloaders.

1) Mechanical balances (balance beams) are not infallible nor are most exceptionally repeatable beyond the precision or reliability of electronic scales. Electronic scales and balances are used in processes far more critical and far more demanding than reloading, with higher stakes, and with highly documented performance metrics for reliability and precision. In reality, this sentiment is like a society-critical comic strip pane - the grey haired reloader stands at the bench in front of his balance beam and says, “I don’t trust electronic scales,” then turns around and grabs a pill bottle of their heart disease/cholesterol/diabetes/blood pressure medication… all of which are much more critical in their life and the lives of millions of others, and all of which are produced using electronic scales… so they really DO trust electronic scales, just don’t trust themselves, or want an excuse to avoid the expense or to avoid learning new gear…

2) If anyone truly is loading ammo which is so close to a failing edge that the precision and reliability of electronic scales present a risk of “disaster,” regardless of whether that disaster is measured in precision loss or catastrophic destruction, then they’re making poor ammo using poor processes. That’s not reloading, it’s meth addiction, regardless of whether you’re using a beam or an e-scale.

Buzznrose said:

When I got back into reloading, I went back and forth on what press to buy. Lots of folks advised single stage, which is solid advice. But I went with a progressive press (550C) and am glad I did, although cost is clearly a negative.

I am a volume reloader of 9MM and .38/.357, so it made sense for me. If I was loading just a few hundred rounds of hunting ammo, the single stage would have been the smarter choice.

I started with an electronic scale and almost blew up my gun. I calibrated it every time but it consistently read 1.5 grains low. 4.2 grains was really 5.7!

I returned it and now use an old Redding beam scale. I check several throws from the powder thrower and when convinced it’s working well, then just load and spot check every 10 rounds. I stick with powder that meters well and the Dillon stays true for hundreds of rounds (or more)

Lots of ways to go. This path seems to be working for me.

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the balance beam don’t lie. I have 2 that I use when batch processing and checking powder. RCBS and Lyman. I check every 20 to 40 charges and alternate between the beam scales

Cost effective and quality ammunition?

Speed, Precision, Low cost. Pick 2. Especially for bottle neck rifle
Low being objective, of course

I think your eyes and what’s behind them are your most important tools to make anything of quality.

You must be able to observe and differentiate results from endless tests so you can right down or remember what works and what doesn’t.

What’s great for one person might not be even suitable for another.

Progressive presses are not necessary but I would shoot a lot less if I didn’t own them.

KansasTrapper77 said:

Example, I understand consistent powder loads create consistent ammo. Is an electric powder dispenser worth the money or stick to a balance beam and trickler. What items stretch your dollar the furthest for quality ammunition?

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Not knowing what you are shooting at what range, it’s entirely possible it simply wouldn’t make any discernible difference in your results to use volume thrown charges (like 100-200 benchrest competition winners) and dispensed/trickled charges would just unnecessarily waste your money and slow you down.

In any case you can get auto trickling and repeatability in the hundredths of a grain for less than $50, using a beam scale.



Just remember it’s on you to see if it makes any improvement or just a way for you to waste time and money.

I’ll say this about manuals, and it will go against many much more experienced folks here, I have one and I’m good. And I rarely look at it much anymore.

Why one? I have a 50th edition Lyman. It has a LOT of good info to learn from and understand about reloading. But I get almost all my reloading data from
Either Hodgdon or Vihtavuori web sites.

Again, I’m a simple guy loading a limited number of calibers and bullets for primarily middle of the scale blaster ammo. This works for me. YMMV.

Buzznrose said:

I’ll say this about manuals, and it will go against many much more experienced folks here, I have one and I’m good. And I rarely look at it much anymore.

Why one? I have a 50th edition Lyman. It has a LOT of good info to learn from and understand about reloading. But I get almost all my reloading data from
Either Hodgdon or Vihtavuori web sites.

Again, I’m a simple guy loading a limited number of calibers and bullets for primarily middle of the scale blaster ammo. This works for me. YMMV.

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I have 4 manuals, incase of a EMP event

KansasTrapper77 said:

My father and I relatively new to reloading < 3 years. And I am ready to build my own setup. I’m tired of traveling to another state to reload. So, I’ve already built my bench as large and as clean as I could with the space I have. I’ve chosen my press and already have one on the way, the trusty RCBS Rock Chucker.

I have two questions for you fellas.

1) What are the most cost effective tools/equipment to make quality ammunition?
Example, I understand consistent powder loads create consistent ammo. Is an electric powder dispenser worth the money or stick to a balance beam and trickler. What items stretch your dollar the furthest for quality ammunition?

2) What is the equipment on your bench that isn’t necessary but you can’t imagine living without nowadays?
The equipment that aids in the enjoyment of reloading.

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1) Lee Loader.....but there's more than "cost effective"......like how much you value your time. Electric powder dispenser....personal. Not for me, but might be for you. Not important for those who use progressives, but you only have an R.C. so.....why not if you have the cash.

2) Before buying progressives, two things....... some version of a Trim Mate and a wet tumbler, mine's a Thumlers tumbler, for case cleaning and polishing.

That was dirty corroded range brass. 2 hours in the Thumler. Cold water, a squirt of Dawn detergent, a .45acp case full of Lemishine, and stainless steel pins

GW Staar said:

1) Lee Loader.....but there's more than "cost effective"......like how much you value your time. Electric powder dispenser....personal. Not for me, but might be for you. Not important for those who use progressives, but you only have an R.C. so.....why not if you have the cash.

2) Before buying progressives, two things....... some version of a Trim Mate and a wet tumbler, mine's a Thumblers tumbler, for case cleaning and polishing.

View attachment 1086013

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something about a case that clean inside! nice

I use a cheapo Frankford Arsenal electronic scale. It serves me well. However, several years ago I bought an old Pacific Press beam scale (pre Hornady) off of ebay. It serves as a backup if I have a doubt about a specific charge.
Found this older beam scale on ebay this morning. It'd probably serve your backup needs just fine:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/403727270096?hash=item5e000540d0:g:tFgAAOSwuXJir6-w

GeoDudeFlorida said:

Yup. Read it. Comprehendo mucho bueno, gracias.

"Is an electric powder dispenser worth the money or stick to a balance beam and trickler." - Don't know. Depends. Is he loading for BR competition or blamo-ammo? I use Lee dippers and a 5-0-5. Works for me but I don't think it would for a shooter like ol' Walkalong or Slamfire, to name a couple of examples.

"What is the equipment on your bench that isn’t necessary but you can’t imagine living without nowadays?"
Well, the only one I can think of is the press and dies. Other than them, like I said above, I don't even need a set of calipers or a scale if all I'm loading is .38Spl and .357Mag. When I stepped up to .30-30 and .30-06 I started thinking using my high-dollar, Starrett and Mitutoyo machinist tools for checking length was just the best thing since sliced bread. Didn't even think about using something "lower cost."

Sometimes the most cost effective is pricey, sometimes it's cheap, depends mostly on THE USER and their skill level. Can't tell anything about the OP's skill level from his posts so far.

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I concur. Without knowing what kind of ammo and what his expectations are, any answer is just a shot in the dark. Someone loading a couple boxes of .30-06 per year will have a completely different idea of what is necessary and helpful versus someone going through a couple boxes of handgun ammo every week. I shoot and reload thousands of rounds per year and have no desire or use for many of the items mentioned in the thread.

Be very realistic and consider what you want to do. If you want cheap 9mm blasting fodder then buy cheap stuff that does the job. If you want to shoot 50bmg a mile and a half making itty bitty groups all along the way, then things are vastly different. For most old hands, a progressive or a turret puts out a pile of handgun ammo at acceptably consistent specs and rifle ammo gets loaded more slowly and meticulously on a single stage. Literally everything else is up for debate. Uniflow powder drops seemed to be the go-to drop forever and then trickle up to load weight using a beam scale. Now things are getting more convoluted as electronic scales are getting better and cheaper. The best thing (in my mind) to do is figure out what your endpoint is and backtrack to determine how to get there.

South Prairie Jim said:

2) What is the equipment on your bench that isn’t necessary but you can’t imagine living without nowadays?
The equipment that aids in the enjoyment of reloading.

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I can't imagine not having my aluminum funnels. They really aren't needed, a plastic funnel would suffice, but powder flows through them easily and with no static.

The rest, as previously said, is dependent on your needs and wants.

chris

KansasTrapper77 said:

Ok so I got busy last night babysitting the grill/smoker!

To clarify for some of the people asking I definitely lean towards making quality hunting and target ammo over pure blasting stuff. My uncle and I cleared some trees to get a 1000 yard range that I have free access to as long as the Kansas heat and wind doesn’t drive you crazy. I have little interest in cranking out 1000s of rounds of 9mm or .223 at this time.

I do want to be efficient with my time and money though. Example, I will probably be getting an electronic scale and powder dispenser from the RCBS lineup because I have an opportunity to get one at a discount.

And I should clarify I understand the need for manuals and reloading blocks and things like that. But don’t think I’m blowing anyone off that suggests those. But be more specific on stuff like manuals! Which are your favorites? And why?

Keep it coming. I’m reading every single post and squirreling it away for future reference.

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1000 yards is a long way. My suggestion is to concentrate your efforts on making one perfect cartridge after another. Don't even think about volume or speed. This needs to be one of those, "for the love of it" type hobbies or you're just going to end up being frustrated and disappointed.
"...will probably be getting an electronic scale and powder dispenser from the RCBS lineup because I have an opportunity to get one at a discount."
That's nice. A good electronic scale is very useful gear; but, I'm not sure what you mean by "powder dispenser."
Do you mean this: Or this?

When I google "RCBS powder dispenser" those are both options.

The Uniflow is an okay piece of gear but you can do just as well with a set of Lee dippers and a good $30 powder trickler like the RCBS or Frankford Arsenal teamed with a good balance beam scale or a quality electronic scale.

Read this thread for a clue on just how good or bad electronic scales can be.

For long-range accuracy with a rifle, your die sets are going to be far more important than your scale. Any decent quality scale in the $40-$400 range will get the job done. You are going to need the best of the best seating dies, probably with a micrometer adjustment - to save your hair and nails - and a very, VERY good F/L sizing die. Case gauges for finished and sized cases, at the least, and way of measuring the base-to-ogive accurately. At 1000 yards, you can't rely on a simple guesstimate like cartridge overall length. You NEED to know how much bullet is seating inside the case FAR more than you need to know how much nose is sticking out.

A good single-stage press designed for delivering leverage, a superb set of dies designed to deliver consistent results and a good set of gauges for checking seating depth, concentricity, and neck diameter (ID and OD), plus the tools to trim necks, deburr flash holes, and reform primer pockets are going to be where you invest time and money. Brand names don't count a whole lot in this game. Some of the best gear isn't all that pricey but it takes a lot of skill and patience to learn to use it properly.

I've made competition range ammo for .303Brit and .30-06 using a Lee Loader set. That's actually one of THE most consistent and accurate ways to reload cartridges for one single rifle. The LL also stretches case life since it's only neck sizing. Get a Brule torch for annealing case necks and F/L die for resetting shoulder angles and you're done. You won't need a bench, just a stump and a mallet. BUT! that's tedious work.

I hope this makes sense. Handloading and reloading are two different things. One is custom-crafting cartridges for a specific use and purpose. The other just refills empty cases back to some factory-like specification using canned recipes. Any body can heat up a can of chili. That's not hard. It takes a really good cook to make Crème Brule.

In a very low volume high accuracy situation a coax with a set of wilson or forester dies, a hand primer with adjustable depth control like the 21st century, and a high accuracy hand trimmer possibly the wilson will make you match grade low volume ammunition at a very reasonable price... that is a very modest cost setup that will produce what your looking for to start. If 1k is your plan don't waste time with cheap brass. Pick peterson, lapua, alphas not box store stuff and load berger, sierra or lapua bullets...

Probably the least valuable tool to get and then play with and then never use again is a consentricity guage.

AJC1 said:

In a very low volume high accuracy situation a coax with a set of wilson or forester dies, a hand primer with adjustable depth control like the 21st century, and a high accuracy hand trimmer possibly the wilson will make you match grade low volume ammunition at a very reasonable price... that is a very modest cost setup that will produce what your looking for to start. If 1k is your plan don't waste time with cheap brass. Pick peterson, lapua, alphas not box store stuff and load berger, sierra or lapua bullets...

Probably the least valuable tool to get and then play with and then never use again is a consentricity guage.

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LOL!!! See? This is how personal reloading is. I just told him he needs a way to check concentricity

BUT, not necessarily a gauge. This is where tools can be multitaskers. A dial indicator and a hand-lathe case trimmer can become a concentricity checking tool with the right setup.
Concentricity is nice to keep tabs on with high-powered rifle. It can be the bell-weather warning when your bullets aren't seating correctly or loosening after seating; like, when your brass is getting close to splitting necks.

KansasTrapper77 said:

manuals! Which are your favorites? And why?

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Data is data. All of the manuals - all of them - offer good data for the loads they include.

Lots of people get excited about the instructional sections of reloading manuals, but other than addressing questions from new reloaders which have read these specific sections, I can’t think of the last time in >20yrs or more that I have needed info from these portions of the manual. When reviewing these sections against common reloading paradigms, manuals don’t actually offer relevant process descriptions and instructions which are truly applicable for most individual reloaders. Broadly the steps described are usually relevant, but you’ll find instruction which only yields ammo which fits minimum SAAMI spec chambers or describes how to make ammo, but not how to make high volume or high precision or ideally fit ammo… it’s largely like reading a kids’ book about “names of the bones in the human body,” while some folks want us to pretend it’s a surgeons reference manual.

So don’t sweat over the manual - the best guidance I can offer there is to pick your bullet and powder for your cartridge, and buy THOSE TWO manuals. If you can find the Loadbooks USA “One Book” for your cartridge, all the better. If you’re looking for really broad reaching data with minimal costs, get the Hornady and Lyman books, and Hodgdon’s magazine, or use their website. Hornady makes a ton of inexpensive bullets, so you’ll probably end up shooting their jacketed bullets if you’re worried about budget. Equally, Lyman has a ton of lead bullet data which can be applied for lead or plated bullets. Hodgdon has huge market availability for powders, and largely has the most popular powders for most common cartridges. Those 3 sources would put in your hands data which would enable broad reloading of many rifle and handgun cartridges with common components and for under $100.

Checking concentricity is wholly a waste of time and money - even for shooting EXCEPTIONALLY small groups.

Varminterror said:

Checking concentricity is wholly a waste of time and money - even for shooting EXCEPTIONALLY small groups.

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Okie dokie.

Mark_Mark said:

the balance beam don’t lie. I have 2 that I use when batch processing and checking powder. RCBS and Lyman. I check every 20 to 40 charges and alternate between the beam scales

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Actually they can stick or hang up if not kept clean so they are not perfect or ever will be and neither are reloading E scales short of Analytical scales.

With long range precision being the game at play, it’s not a chore of simply buying the most expensive, but generally the cheaper stuff is not what your going to want. Redding dies aren’t the end-all-be-all but they are pretty stinkin good. Micrometer adjust is a nice option, but my opinion is that buying large volumes of the same lot of components goes further than click adjust dies. If you buy 5000 of the same bullet from the same lot number then they will most likely be very close and that avoids changing a good setup and starting over.