Off the shelf rifle accuracy

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allisd17 said:
I have one too. Mine likes Wolf hollow points but I'm also starting to get some good results with 123g Hornady SSTs and AA 1680.
Click to expand...
Mine shoots anything good, hope to bring it out next week to a 300 yard range, have some ppu brass case to try. I should buy some more steel case it's back to being cheaper then some of the 308-310 bullets alone. Have the 2-7 leupold freedom on it now. I need to get some sst, I have some 130 speer I think will be nice on deer.
 
No pics, but about 1/2" groups with my Ruger American Predator in .308 with factory 150 grain Winchester Power-Points. I've had the rifle for quite a while and I still get all giggly when I shoot for groups. It's incredible how accurate it is for the money.
 
Left group is from my howa 1500 300wm, 208Elds h1000 ( tinkering with this gun, not sure why but it went to pot on me the last couple times we were out)

Right side group is my 280 AI Ridgeline with 190 grain A-tips. Pretty representative of what this gun will do.
PXL_20220522_173858390.jpg

I'm sure I've got pictures of some other groups I've shot with other rifles, including the someone inch 200 yd group in the sub. 2. In 300 yard group shot with the Christiansen....
But for the most part, I found that a factory rifle shooting decent quality ammunition, hand loaded or not, will usually at least shoot shoot minute of angle or very close.
 
The two most precise factory rifles I have ever owned have been safely defensible as sub-MOA rifles, and defensible as sub-half-MOA.

One of these is my wife’s Savage 12 BVSS in 223rem, which shot stupid small (still largely does, but the barrel’s getting up in age. 26” factory tube is 1:9”, so it has enough speed to get things done with 69 and 77grn SMK’s, and holds on pretty well out to 600-800 yards with 75 A-max/ELD’s.
56A67D9B-0F68-46A6-B40A-18521145C30F.jpeg

Breaking in the barrel, this was the first group the rifle above ever fired - using cheap Remington UMC 50grn JHP’s, of all things…
C644C23C-81C6-48B2-A28B-8F32F6C8387F.jpeg

The other of my two most precise factory rifles I have owned has been a Seekins Precision Havak in 6 Creedmoor. These groups were from load development at 100 yards, including long range BC confirmation at 875 yards - two groups, one of 3 shots, then the other after correcting the waterline.
4307A88C-290F-40A8-867A-80D3E9BB1255.jpeg 095336D9-9EC3-44FD-BDAD-1C851BB61A77.jpeg 66733E94-C24B-4C02-B3D8-7AF9B6FF534F.jpeg C9E485BA-12C8-41BB-9B85-D36A0C1A6E1B.jpeg FAFEE30F-07F6-42E1-8AB0-334AFB57BDD9.jpeg C31E6DD2-FF21-4B94-A21A-77D0546E9B2C.jpeg B4CDBDFD-6097-47F9-A011-BEB127F00A04.jpeg
 

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My savage model 10 FCP-SR is one of
The top 2 or 3 most accurate rifles I own. Of course the other Two are savages as well, the best group of my life I shot with it.

It seems to shoot under an inch no matter what ammo I put through it.

upload_2022-6-26_19-17-27.jpeg That’s 5 shots at 100 yards
 
I do not consider three shot groups any measure of accuracy or consistency. I still shoot ten shot groups, and if truth be told, I should be shooting 40 shot groups. There is an excellent article at the end of the Oct 2014 Shooting Sports USA on group size and accuracy: http://www.nxtbook.com/nxtbooks/nra/ssusa_201410/ This foundational article was written by small bore prone competitors who wanted to shoot perfect scores. In small bore prone a Match is a 40 shot event of two twenty shot targets. The typical 1600 round Smallbore bore prone tournament is 160 rounds fired for record, divided up into four 40 round Matches. Therefore the referenced article assumes that a 40 round group is the baseline.

As anyone can see in table six, at least at 100 yards, a five shot group is 59% of the size of a 40 shot group, a 10 shot 74%, and a twenty shot 88%. A three shot group is below contempt, but three shot groups are the current standard for the shooting community because the leaders of the shooting community, that is in print Gunwriters, have convinced the shooting community that three shot groups are an exact measure of accuracy and consistency.

This is another good article on the limitations of five shot groups

Accuracy Testing: Shortcomings Of The Five-Shot Group

by Brad Miller, Ph.D. - Wednesday, September 25, 2019

https://www.ssusa.org/articles/2019/9/25/accuracy-testing-shortcomings-of-the-five-shot-group

one that addresses statistics for accuracy.

Shot Group Statistics for Small Arms Applications

https://apps.dtic.mil/sti/pdfs/AD1034885.pdf

The inprint crowd gets paid a flat fee for an article, Dpris said $400, and it only makes economic sense to spend as little time at the range, and shoot as little as possible, and even at that, the in print writers can't be making much money. Luckily for them people love symmetry, and equilateral triangles are symmetrical, and you can tell humans find triangle shapes pleasing as they are all over ancient and modern designs and architecture. Would you prefer your eternal megalomaniac monument to be a pyramid, or an irregular polygon? I find somewhere around five sides, the irregular polygon is a bit jarring, but highly representative of actual groups.

Based on my experience, the older wood stocked factory rifles shot poorly unless glass bedded.

this Remington Classic is typical

jvOkxVQ.jpg

flyers and the action slide around in the stock, causing this lateral dispersion.

OmKogre.jpg


Remington put a wood pressure point at the tip of the stock, the barrel touched the barrel channel, in several places. Once I bedded the action and free floated the barrel, it shot well. This is a zeroing group.

xAEG0vE.jpg


It really liked SMK bullets, and this is the best of the ten shot groups I shot that day,

AHQRhjk.jpg

It has been my experience that factory rifles require tinkering to make the buggers shoot consistently. And then I purchased a M70 in a tupperware stock.

0TIUxGk.jpg

WkeZcDL.jpg

Did nothing but stick a cheap scope on top, and it shoots well. Makes me wonder, if tupperware stocks are the way to go, since wood has to be worked for best results.

RdRuQ41.jpg


this is not bad with cheap FMJBT bullets

x09ve7K.jpg

If you pay more, you will get more

GQVRohJ.jpg

O9FFlPU.jpg

BSA made a good rifle:

wV0LqXB.jpg


zG314lu.jpg

this BSA was discontinued in the middle 1950's, for the MKIII version. Still shoots well

vSWahsf.jpg

vnHzCKZ.jpg

VM6Kerp.jpg

When rifles get this old, it takes time to find the right parts, if they can be found, and till I found a BSA handstop, this one worked.

C2VswFs.jpg
 
Slamfire said:
I do not consider three shot groups any measure of accuracy or consistency. I still shoot ten shot groups, and if truth be told, I should be shooting 40 shot groups. There is an excellent article at the end of the Oct 2014 Shooting Sports USA on group size and accuracy: http://www.nxtbook.com/nxtbooks/nra/ssusa_201410/ This foundational article was written by small bore prone competitors who wanted to shoot perfect scores. In small bore prone a Match is a 40 shot event of two twenty shot targets. The typical 1600 round Smallbore bore prone tournament is 160 rounds fired for record, divided up into four 40 round Matches. Therefore the referenced article assumes that a 40 round group is the baseline.

As anyone can see in table six, at least at 100 yards, a five shot group is 59% of the size of a 40 shot group, a 10 shot 74%, and a twenty shot 88%. A three shot group is below contempt, but three shot groups are the current standard for the shooting community because the leaders of the shooting community, that is in print Gunwriters, have convinced the shooting community that three shot groups are an exact measure of accuracy and consistency.

This is another good article on the limitations of five shot groups

Accuracy Testing: Shortcomings Of The Five-Shot Group

by Brad Miller, Ph.D. - Wednesday, September 25, 2019

https://www.ssusa.org/articles/2019/9/25/accuracy-testing-shortcomings-of-the-five-shot-group

one that addresses statistics for accuracy.

Shot Group Statistics for Small Arms Applications

https://apps.dtic.mil/sti/pdfs/AD1034885.pdf

The inprint crowd gets paid a flat fee for an article, Dpris said $400, and it only makes economic sense to spend as little time at the range, and shoot as little as possible, and even at that, the in print writers can't be making much money. Luckily for them people love symmetry, and equilateral triangles are symmetrical, and you can tell humans find triangle shapes pleasing as they are all over ancient and modern designs and architecture. Would you prefer your eternal megalomaniac monument to be a pyramid, or an irregular polygon? I find somewhere around five sides, the irregular polygon is a bit jarring, but highly representative of actual groups.

Based on my experience, the older wood stocked factory rifles shot poorly unless glass bedded.

this Remington Classic is typical

View attachment 1086537

flyers and the action slide around in the stock, causing this lateral dispersion.

View attachment 1086538


Remington put a wood pressure point at the tip of the stock, the barrel touched the barrel channel, in several places. Once I bedded the action and free floated the barrel, it shot well. This is a zeroing group.

View attachment 1086539


It really liked SMK bullets, and this is the best of the ten shot groups I shot that day,

View attachment 1086540

It has been my experience that factory rifles require tinkering to make the buggers shoot consistently. And then I purchased a M70 in a tupperware stock.

View attachment 1086541

View attachment 1086542

Did nothing but stick a cheap scope on top, and it shoots well. Makes me wonder, if tupperware stocks are the way to go, since wood has to be worked for best results.

View attachment 1086543


this is not bad with cheap FMJBT bullets

View attachment 1086544

If you pay more, you will get more

View attachment 1086545

View attachment 1086546

BSA made a good rifle:

View attachment 1086547


View attachment 1086548

this BSA was discontinued in the middle 1950's, for the MKIII version. Still shoots well

View attachment 1086549

View attachment 1086550

View attachment 1086551

When rifles get this old, it takes time to find the right parts, if they can be found, and till I found a BSA handstop, this one worked.

View attachment 1086552
Click to expand...
Seems like these 40 shot groups would be more of a test of the shooter. I usually dry fire 2 or 3 times to get use to that particular rifles feel again then shoot my 1 or 2 5 shot groups. I notice I don't do everything right after that and start getting sloppy especially on heavier recoiling rifles. Yet those rifles seem to always do the same 5 shot groups even years apart once I find my load. Now if that rifle was in a rest clamped in more shots the better.
 
Slamfire said:
I do not consider three shot groups any measure of accuracy or consistency. I still shoot ten shot groups, and if truth be told, I should be shooting 40 shot groups. There is an excellent article at the end of the Oct 2014 Shooting Sports USA on group size and accuracy: http://www.nxtbook.com/nxtbooks/nra/ssusa_201410/ This foundational article was written by small bore prone competitors who wanted to shoot perfect scores. In small bore prone a Match is a 40 shot event of two twenty shot targets. The typical 1600 round Smallbore bore prone tournament is 160 rounds fired for record, divided up into four 40 round Matches. Therefore the referenced article assumes that a 40 round group is the baseline.

As anyone can see in table six, at least at 100 yards, a five shot group is 59% of the size of a 40 shot group, a 10 shot 74%, and a twenty shot 88%. A three shot group is below contempt, but three shot groups are the current standard for the shooting community because the leaders of the shooting community, that is in print Gunwriters, have convinced the shooting community that three shot groups are an exact measure of accuracy and consistency.

This is another good article on the limitations of five shot groups

Accuracy Testing: Shortcomings Of The Five-Shot Group

by Brad Miller, Ph.D. - Wednesday, September 25, 2019

https://www.ssusa.org/articles/2019/9/25/accuracy-testing-shortcomings-of-the-five-shot-group

one that addresses statistics for accuracy.

Shot Group Statistics for Small Arms Applications

https://apps.dtic.mil/sti/pdfs/AD1034885.pdf

The inprint crowd gets paid a flat fee for an article, Dpris said $400, and it only makes economic sense to spend as little time at the range, and shoot as little as possible, and even at that, the in print writers can't be making much money. Luckily for them people love symmetry, and equilateral triangles are symmetrical, and you can tell humans find triangle shapes pleasing as they are all over ancient and modern designs and architecture. Would you prefer your eternal megalomaniac monument to be a pyramid, or an irregular polygon? I find somewhere around five sides, the irregular polygon is a bit jarring, but highly representative of actual groups.

Based on my experience, the older wood stocked factory rifles shot poorly unless glass bedded.

this Remington Classic is typical

View attachment 1086537

flyers and the action slide around in the stock, causing this lateral dispersion.

View attachment 1086538


Remington put a wood pressure point at the tip of the stock, the barrel touched the barrel channel, in several places. Once I bedded the action and free floated the barrel, it shot well. This is a zeroing group.

View attachment 1086539


It really liked SMK bullets, and this is the best of the ten shot groups I shot that day,

View attachment 1086540

It has been my experience that factory rifles require tinkering to make the buggers shoot consistently. And then I purchased a M70 in a tupperware stock.

View attachment 1086541

View attachment 1086542

Did nothing but stick a cheap scope on top, and it shoots well. Makes me wonder, if tupperware stocks are the way to go, since wood has to be worked for best results.

View attachment 1086543


this is not bad with cheap FMJBT bullets

View attachment 1086544

If you pay more, you will get more

View attachment 1086545

View attachment 1086546

BSA made a good rifle:

View attachment 1086547


View attachment 1086548

this BSA was discontinued in the middle 1950's, for the MKIII version. Still shoots well

View attachment 1086549

View attachment 1086550

View attachment 1086551

When rifles get this old, it takes time to find the right parts, if they can be found, and till I found a BSA handstop, this one worked.

View attachment 1086552
Click to expand...


Not everyone can afford to shoot 40-160 rounds, some of us have family that depend on us financially. When I've had to pull the trigger be it on game for the table or to take care of a pest problem with livestock, I don't get 40 times to shoot, it's one maybe two on a cold bore. No warm up, no practice. Just a quick short window to get the job done.
 
Jonny2guns said:
Not everyone can afford to shoot 40-160 rounds, some of us have family that depend on us financially. When I've had to pull the trigger be it on game for the table or to take care of a pest problem with livestock, I don't get 40 times to shoot, it's one maybe two on a cold bore. No warm up, no practice. Just a quick short window to get the job done.
Click to expand...
Absolutely correct!!! I try to explain this to my friends. That cold bore shot is where it's at. I get going out to shoot and have fun but practice and take note that first shot. When your hunting that's usually the only one you get. Lately I've been pushing further and further out and trying to get that first round hit everytime. I love the challenge of a new range of unknown distance and direction.
 
My father picked up a Ruger American Predator in .243 LH and he printed a 3 shot group you could cover with a nickel. This was in the process of sighting in the scope so warm bore. But I was impressed for a rifle under $500
 
troy fairweather said:
3 round is good for hunting/plinking, 5 is more for dialing in a load/showing off and 10 only if your in a comp at you will be shooting 10 in one string.
Click to expand...
I usually use 3 shots to find a load then 5 shots on different days and longer distance to prove and settle on them. The last rifle I dialed in took around 100 some shots using this method. Which is alot of time and $. Couldn't imagine using 10 or 40 round strings. Also wish they had some sample packs of powder and bullets. It's sucks to shoot 18 shots out of a 100 round pack of bullets to know they don't work in your rifle.
 
Airborne77 said:
Absolutely correct!!! I try to explain this to my friends. That cold bore shot is where it's at. I get going out to shoot and have fun but practice and take note that first shot. When your hunting that's usually the only one you get. Lately I've been pushing further and further out and trying to get that first round hit everytime. I love the challenge of a new range of unknown distance and direction.
Click to expand...

Sounds like you need to try traditional muzzleloader hunting :thumbup:
 
It’s bad science to put a discrete number on sample size - the set variability determines the sample size necessary to draw statistically valid conclusions.

When I shoot for groups, I generally shoot 10-15+. The analysis performed on the 3 shot groups pictured above has no dependency upon group size, so shooting 1 or 3 or 30 only impacts how much barrel life, components, and money is spent, not how much confidence is achieved in the result.
 
Airborne77 said:
I usually use 3 shots to find a load then 5 shots on different days and longer distance to prove and settle on them. The last rifle I dialed in took around 100 some shots using this method. Which is alot of time and $. Couldn't imagine using 10 or 40 round strings. Also wish they had some sample packs of powder and bullets. It's sucks to shoot 18 shots out of a 100 round pack of bullets to know they don't work in your rifle.
Click to expand...
There was company that used to sell sample bullets, think 15. They were 50%-100% more then retail but better then buying 50- or a 100 of a bullet you don't like.
 
troy fairweather said:
There was company that used to sell sample bullets, think 15. They were 50%-100% more then retail but better then buying 50- or a 100 of a bullet you don't like.
Click to expand...
Yeah I thought I saw some noslers like that years ago. But not on the market very long
 
Frulk said:
Sounds like you need to try traditional muzzleloader hunting :thumbup:
Click to expand...
Been there still doing it. Along with archery. But squirrels with a rimfire is still my favorite. .22 mag at 60 to 70 yards waiting on the perfect shot. Well long range hunting to. Ah he'll I like it all.....lol
 
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