How do you know if a plated bullet is loaded to fast?

jmorris said:

A target just far enough away from the muzzle to not be torn will do it.

These are bullets where the plating has failed.

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Those are what I describe as pinwheels but don't have pictures.... I've never had it happen to me...

GeoDudeFlorida said:

Excellent! IMR 4895 and IMR 4064 seem to be back in availability if you'd prefer to use a slower powder and try for that 3Kfps mark. I don't think 2400 will get you there. Might but I doubt it.

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I agree. 2400 is for 1800-2200fps. Rifle powder for anything faster.

CoalCrackerAl said:

I have some IMR 4895 on hand.

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Well yippee-kai-yea! Now we're talkin'!
That little 120gr. plated ought to run like a laser beam out of your... um... don't recall you saying what types of .30-06's this was going through...
Anyways, they ought to run nice and fast without a lot of pressure for paper-punching. Lyman's Cast has load data.

I used to have a nice, accurate load using about 50 grs. of IMR 4895 with Sierra 125 jacketed PH's in my -06. I never chrono'ed it, but imagine that it was about 3000 fps. I'd expect something similar with plated as long as they stay together at that velocity.

CoalCrackerAl said:

I have a Remington 770 and a 760.

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Oooohhhh,
I'm not familiar with the 770 - a little new for me - but I have a 760 in .300Savage and have had at least one in every chambering from .243Win to .35Whelen. It's one of my favorites of the old-breed Remingtons. My remaining Remingtons in .30cal are a 721 .30-06, a Model 30S in .30-06 and the 760 in .300Savage. I also have a 788 in .222Rem, a 600 in .35Rem and a Sportsman 81 in .35Rem. That 120gr. plated sounds like a recipe for a whole lotta fun! I might have to try some when I run out of 130gr. FRN Hi-Tek Quality-Cast .310"s.

jr_watkins said:

Ummm, is this right? I find that any plated bullet leaves that grey residue on targets shot close up (a foot or two).

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The radial “pinwheel spray” is a bullet coming apart. If all of yours are doing that, they are all coming apart.

A “grease ring” left, even by an FMJ, is NOT an indicator they are coming apart.

This would be a normal bullet hole, for example.

Maybe we are saying the same thing.....the first pic are 2 shots of jacketed 9mm FMJ into a cardboard box at a distance of 1 foot.


The next pic is a plated 9mm FMJ fired into cardboard at a distance of 1 foot.


These are both factory ammo. I repeated this test with 40S&W reloads and have the same results. The plated bullets ALL leave a grey residue in that circular pattern. The bullets are not 'coming apart'.

I should add, none of this grey residue is present on the target from shots fired from more than 5 feet away.

jmorris said:

The radial “pinwheel spray” is a bullet coming apart. If all of yours are doing that, they are all coming apart.

A “grease ring” left, even by an FMJ, is NOT an indicator they are coming apart.

This would be a normal bullet hole

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Agreed...
If the plating was coming off, or the bullet was flying apart... common sense says it would punch a hole in the paper.
The person posting those 'pinwheel' pictures stated it was done as close to the muzzle as possible to not damage the paper.
Bullets rotate VERY fast. What is likely being seen, is a very light dusting of lube or something. Not sure what else would print on the paper but not tear it. Some leftover oil from cleaning the barrel? Some left over cast bullet lube in the barrel? A little leftover barrel fouling getting dragged along for the ride? I can't see the pinwheels being caused by plating failure, or it would have torn the paper.

n2omike said:

What is likely being seen, is a very light dusting of lube or something. Not sure what else would print on the paper but not tear it. Some leftover oil from cleaning the barrel? Some left over cast bullet lube in the barrel? A little leftover barrel fouling getting dragged along for the ride?

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The grey residue is not any of these things because it NEVER happens with jacketed bullets that I have fired at close range, only plated. I fired the shots with the same gun consecutively on the same day without any cleaning. Best I can figure is a little of the plating is scraping off resulting in small fragments of lead being removed by the rifling and exiting the barrel. Isn't puncturing the cardboard because the mass is so small. That's my theory anyway.

I have not tried this with non-plated lead bullets or synthetic coated bullets.

jr_watkins said:

The next pic is a plated 9mm FMJ fired into cardboard at a distance of 1 foot.
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These are both factory ammo. I repeated this test with 40S&W reloads and have the same results. The plated bullets ALL leave a grey residue in that circular pattern. The bullets are not 'coming apart'.

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First, a bit of pedantic semantics. FMJ to me means a copper jacket (not plated) with exposed base. If I understand correctly this was shot with a plated bullet which is more of a total metal jacket (covered base), except to be clear the plating not having the thickness of a real copper jacket.

It looks to me like it came apart? Not only does the deposit look metallic, but are those small penetrations around the point of impact potentially fragments?

n2omike said:

I can't see the pinwheels being caused by plating failure, or it would have torn the paper.

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Well, come on over and I can demonstrate it for you. I can even show you how gain twist barrels like the Schuemann AET barrels have a greater propensity to destroy the plating and cause the pinwheels than traditional rifling.

This isn’t something I discovered, it’s pretty common knowledge to those that play gun games using them.

I have only done it to see what my coatings are doing but there are also ways to recover a bullet, without damage, to see how it held up on the ride out the barrel.

jmorris said:

Well, come on over and I can demonstrate it for you. I can even show you how gain twist barrels like the Schuemann AET barrels have a greater propensity to destroy the plating and cause the pinwheels than traditional rifling.

This isn’t something I discovered, it’s pretty common knowledge to those that play gun games using them.

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Yup. That's the reason I have always - and told other people the same - loaded copper-plated lead using the same data as the lead that's underneath the plating. Hard core, hard lead data. Soft core, soft lead data. The plating - like paint, enamel, plastic, wax or polystyrene - is just a lubricant laid on top of the lead. It's designed to mitigate friction, not the effects of inertia or centrifugal forces.

Put the following into your knowledge base as one data point.

I tried a few loads using 110g jacked 30 cal (Hornady V Max if I recall). Over 3,000 fps I was getting bullets blowing up at ~50 yards.

This was a 1:10 twist .30-06. Varmint bullets have a thin jacket but not as thin as plated.

I would not be surprised to hear when you get to 100 yards that you’re having trouble matching up the rounds fired with the holes in your target

Please let us know

eddiememphis said:

Anyone else curious why someone would need a 120 grain bullet to travel 25 yards into cardboard at 3000fps?

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Cuz "America!"

jr_watkins said:

Maybe we are saying the same thing.....the first pic are 2 shots of jacketed 9mm FMJ into a cardboard box at a distance of 1 foot.
View attachment 1087381

The next pic is a plated 9mm FMJ fired into cardboard at a distance of 1 foot.
View attachment 1087383

These are both factory ammo. I repeated this test with 40S&W reloads and have the same results. The plated bullets ALL leave a grey residue in that circular pattern. The bullets are not 'coming apart'.

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The volume and size of the ejecta says that's some kind of lube not a hole in the jacket. If you look at the original pinwheels they are 1-1.5 times caliber..... your example far excess anything I've ever seen.

AJC1 said:

The volume and size of the ejecta says that's some kind of lube not a hole in the jacket. If you look at the original pinwheels they are 1-1.5 times caliber..... your example far excess anything I've ever seen.

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There isn't a hole in the jacket because there isn't a jacket, this only happens with plated bullets!

I suspect most people have never fired plated bullets at a target less than 1 foot away. I hadn't in 35 years of shooting. Why would you? I ask that before you poo-poo this, shoot a plated bullet at a paper target from 6-12 inches and see that you don't see the same thing. I had similar results with 3 brands (I did this last year and don't remember the brands) of factory loaded 9mm (with plated bullets) and with my own 40S&W reloads.

jr_watkins said:

There isn't a hole in the jacket because there isn't a jacket, this only happens with plated bullets!

I suspect most people have never fired plated bullets at a target less than 1 foot away. I hadn't in 35 years of shooting. Why would you? I ask that before you poo-poo this, shoot a plated bullet at a paper target from 6-12 inches and see that you don't see the same thing. I had similar results with 3 brands (I did this last year and don't remember the brands) of factory loaded 9mm (with plated bullets) and with my own 40S&W reloads.

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I'm saying it's not lead... it's something else like lube.

AJC1 said:

I'm saying it's not lead... it's something else like lube.

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But not plating?

I've loaded plated bullets (180gr) in 10mm and was amazed to see the pin wheels as have been pictured (not the wild one) over a healthy dose of longshot. I haven't loaded more. Plated were interesting for a short moment of the pandemic where they were all that was around. Easy to compromise (penetrate and show the lead core) the plating too with just a bit too much crimp. Never shot those. Accuracy regardless was poor too vs actual J-HP.