30-30 or 44 mag for black bear protection?

bearcreek said:

Sorry, I meant 5 mm rimfire. I edited the post. Not a widely known cartridge. I believe it was introduced in the late 60's. Never was popular, but an old mountain man I know from WV bought one when they first came out and it's been his rifle of choice for bears and whitetails since then.

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Likely 5mm Remington Magnum Rimfire. Its a true 5mm, .204 bullet in a bottleneck casing, shooting a 39gr bullet at over 2000 fps. It looks like a slightly fatter 17 HMR. Neat little round imho.

A horse apiece.

Personally, I prefer 44mag over Dirty Thirty.

I hear people talk about "bear defense". Especially with black bears it is an improbable scenario as they are afraid of humans. The most dangerous are moms protecting their cubs and bears that are regularly fed by humans for whatever reasons. In a few cases in PA I know that charges were preferred against individuals who claimed the necessity of shooting these animals for self defense. In one case cited, a homeowner came out his front door and went around his house to the back yard where he killed the bruin. He was cited, fined, and lost hunting privileges. I do not know what happened to the gun he used. My point is, be very careful not to shoot a black bear unless it is really threatening you in a demonstrable way. Be sure that the incident will be investigated. But, if the need arises, and it has, either caliber cited by the OP would be sufficient to stop the attack.

bearcreek said:

Sorry, I meant 5 mm rimfire. I edited the post. Not a widely known cartridge. I believe it was introduced in the late 60's. Never was popular, but an old mountain man I know from WV bought one when they first came out and it's been his rifle of choice for bears and whitetails since then.

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I have a 5mm Rem. Mag., I like the cartridge, but it's no bear/deer round.

Just because something CAN be done, doesn't mean it SHOULD be done!!

DM

.308 Norma said:

I don't know anything about the hunting regulations in WV, (where that "old mountain man" is from) bearcreek, but I see you claim "N Idaho" is your Location. It's against the law to hunt big game (except for mountain lions or legally-trapped gray wolves with ANY rimfire rifle or rimfire handgun in Idaho. It's spelled out right there in black and white on page 100 of the "Idaho Big Game 2022 Seasons & Rules" book.
I won't be drawn into an argument about whether or not it's ethical to hunt black bears (or any other big game) with a 5mm rimfire either. Hunting black bears with a rimfire is against the law in Idaho. Period.

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I live in N Idaho, and am well aware that hunting bears with rimfires is illegal here. I'd have to check, but more than likely it's illegal in West Virginia too, where the man I'm talking about lives. I didn't say what he was doing was legal or ethical, just that it happened.

Just did a quick scan through the WV regs, I'm not finding anything about caliber requirements for bear, so he may have been legal.

I think either one would be fine. I've often thought that at very close range, the heavier bullet, and larger diameter of the .44 my be better, but that could just be a myth I am trying to perpetuate. I would take which ever rifle was lightest, or I liked best, or shot best, regardless of which of the two calibers it was.

With either caliber, strictly for close in work, I'd load a 180 or 200 grain bullet in the .30WCF, (not options if you don't hand-load, so a 170 is fine) and as mentioned a 300 grain bullet in the .44 rather than a 240.

Black bears can be unpredictable, no matter what the stats say. I had to shoot one last fall that was going into people's camps, and refusing to be scared off. This was in a remote area where black bears are extremely wary of humans.

Regardless of what you choose regarding a firearm, you might consider bear spray as well. I found this recent video interesting:


One big point brought up was that if you have to target a bear near another person, the consequences of an errant shot with a firearm could be catastrophic for the person. Not that getting hit with bear spray would be pleasant, but it's better than getting hit with flying lead.

If one of your children was between you and a charging bear, would the gun do you any good?

I’d go with whichever I already owned if I were carrying a rifle. But I’d take a .44 mag revolver if I were really concerned about defense against bears, because I suspect it’s considerably faster to deploy than the lever action slung over my shoulder if I really needed it in a hurry.

Yes, carry both. Be very aware of the wind direction, you don't want to spray yourself and then get bitten. !!! Takes very little breeze to bring it back to your own face. Also, hang the spray on your pack, so that others can access it and use it, while you stand by with the artillery. Team work!

Harell is good but he is mostly a self defence guy, usually only compares factory ammo and not usually +P hunting ammo in heavy pistol cals. You can load 44 or 30-30 up or down but the 44 will gain the most from handloading of the two.

There is something to be said for a 300gr bullet vs a 180 or 190, but there is also the penetration that comes with 2400fps vs 1600fps.
Either should be fine for black bear. There is also the issue of having 10rds vs 6 or 8, but really, if you get off more than 6 shots with a lever gun, you probably started shooting prematurely, unless you are Jerry Miculek.

Hugger-4641 said:

There is something to be said for a 300gr bullet vs a 180 or 190, but there is also the penetration that comes with 2400fps vs 1600fps.

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2400fps with 180/190 in 30-30 ? jeepers, thats top end krag, even 303 brit level.

Black bear aren't particularly big as a rule, nor hard to kill. And just like human SD killing isn't the goal, stopping the attack is. For defensive purposes you're talking about 10 yard shots max so bullet drop isn't a concern. If I were HUNTING black bear, I'd choose 30-30 between the 2 because they tend to be more accurate, bullet drop isn't as much of a concern, and the better penetration is more likely to leave a blood trail.

But for defense I'd choose 44 mag. The rifles are usually lighter and faster handling, and it is faster to get off multiple shots. But I'd use either if I didn't have both to choose from.

Handgun or Pistol Against Bear Attacks 104 cases, 97% Effective (ammoland.com)

I know this link is about handguns, but it is still relevant. These guys have documented 104 situations where HANDGUNS stopped bear attacks. HANDGUNS were effective 97% of the time. They profiled 30 cases where 44 mag was used effectively 100% of the time. If handguns are 97% effective I don't worry too much about which rifle.

But even handguns in much less powerful cartridges have been used. They profile 7 cases where 9mm handguns stopped bear attacks and were effective 100% of the time. Five of the seven involved grizzly or brown bear.
Between common cartridges like 9mm, 40 S&W, and 45 ACP there are over 20 incidents profiled with 100% success.

With the documented success of common handguns against bear I'd leave the long guns home unless I'm hunting. You will always have a handgun on you. My preference is a 10mm pistol with heavy 200 gr loads from Double Tap or Buffalo Bore. But I've seen enough that I'd be OK in black bear country with a common 9mm pistol as long as it were loaded with bullets on the heavier end of the scale.

trekker73 said:

2400fps with 180/190 in 30-30 ? jeepers, thats top end krag, even 303 brit level.

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Yeah, I was rounding top end for both. 1600 is a bit generous for a 300gr 44mag also.
I do push 170's about 2400 in my model 94 30-30 without issue, but I haven't chrono'd or even shot 180gr or 190 in a long time.

Hugger-4641 said:

Yeah I was rounding top end for both. 1600 is a bit generous for a 300gr 44mag also.
I do push 170's about 2400 in my model 94 30-30 without issue, but I haven't chrono'd or even shot 180gr or 190 in a long time.

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44 mag will do 1600fps+ with 300 and the right powders. There is printed data out there for 1350fps+ in handgun barrels after all, add the usual 300(or even 400fps) for a rifle.

Not my type of load, but if we are comparing high end 30-30 it has to be apples to apples.

Just remember, whatever you choose,….
“Sometimes you get the bear, and sometimes the bear gets you”

For me personally, screaming “Get! Shoo! Go Home! Boogah!” while waving my hands about has worked once.

On the other hand over on Lake Seminole there used to be and old restaurant of the fried everything variety at a boat landing called Wingate’s Lunker Lodge (no, really)

They even offered to clean and cook your catch of the day, There were of course fish mounts on every wall but I enjoyed the points in shadowboxes at most tables, more than in most museums.

Behind you at check out was a black bear mount. Displayed with the bear was a bent .30-30 Winchester 1894. Supposedly that bear took six rounds of factory .30-30, the shooter dropped the rifle and “jumped for that limb away up there” from where he watched the bear attack the abandoned rifle for a minute or so before the bear staggered away and expired.

Made a great display and story, at any rate, and gave on pause for thought.

Most folks were more interested in their Minor Bird Chattering from his roost next to the bear…. hey it was the middle of the last century. But a guy that bummed around in the woods a lot and thought of black bear as just hairy pigs had to do some thinking after seeing that display.

My understanding is that the original Lodge burnt down ( could pine construction and fifty years of deep fryers bubbling have been a factor? Nah!)

-kBob

idek said:

Regardless of what you choose regarding a firearm, you might consider bear spray as well. I found this recent video interesting:


One big point brought up was that if you have to target a bear near another person, the consequences of an errant shot with a firearm could be catastrophic for the person. Not that getting hit with bear spray would be pleasant, but it's better than getting hit with flying lead.

If one of your children was between you and a charging bear, would the gun do you any good?

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Bear spray is a great idea in theory, but reality is it is often a failed process.

Besides shortfalls like distance, susceptible to wind, can’t reload, etc.,

I would not want to rely solely on it, as a poor woman in Montana
recently is an example of it failing:

“Read more: https://www.ammoland.com/2022/07/be...ray-was-killed-by-grizzly-bear/#ixzz7b0Yuih3h
Under Creative Commons License: Attribution
Follow us: @Ammoland on Twitter | Ammoland on Facebook

U.S.A. –-(AmmoLand.com)-– In the early morning hours of July 6, 2021, in the village of Ovando, Montana, mere feet from several buildings, Leah Lokan was attacked by a 417-pound grizzly bear. She valiantly used bear spray in an attempt to stop the attack. The bear spray failed. Ms. Lokan was a small but strong woman. She was killed in the unprovoked predatory attack.”

https://www.ammoland.com/2022/07/be...r-used-bear-spray-was-killed-by-grizzly-bear/

Everyone loves a good bear thread! As mentioned before, protection is a short range affair. The biggest concern for any animal attack is having tools on your person ready at all times. We have seen tons of incidents where guns and sprays were set down or in a pack when a surprise encounter took place. If it's not a surprise chances are very good it should not involve defense in the first place. Holstered handguns tend to stay on your person and ready for quick deployment regardless of other things you are doing. The tanker style rigs are nice because they are accessible when you fall and don't get in the way of backpack straps or belts. Another major plus in parks are that most other people you may encounter tend to be much more accepting of a holstered pistol over a long gun, especially park staff and conservation officers. Full sized handguns in common calibers have proven to be good deterrents for unhappy animals plus not so friendly people who might happen to be around.

Southmountain said:

I know neither is the top choice.

Between a 20-inch lever action in 30-30 or 44 mag (also have one in 32 win spl), what would be your choice for black bear defense in the eastern woods? 240 grain jsp for 44 mag, 170 grain jsp for 30-30/32ws

Going hiking with family, 2 young kids, in a pretty wild area known to have black bears. Probability is low but feel better with some protection. Not hunting on this trip. Any noticeable difference in these limited options, or pick out of a hat? TIA

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Without reading each of these fine responses I’ll just apologize in advance.
I have both weapons and live in Bear country, I will always take my 30-30 Marlin over my big revolver while climbing or hiking.

My 2 cents, I'd go with the 32 Win Spl. It's enough for Bear and you can use hardcast lead bullets for penetration. Its light for handling purposes and accurate for its intended range.

Between the two, 30-30.
Both are powerful but I’m betting the 30-30 at 50-100 yards will provide better penetration.
Although there’s quite a few hotter rifle cartridges available in lever guns.

30-30 is clearly superior but I don't worry about black bear. I have had them at my campsite. Just about any centerfire would work. If I feel like I need to be armed my first choice is a 357 mag pistol.

Hokkmike said:

I hear people talk about "bear defense". Especially with black bears it is an improbable scenario as they are afraid of humans. The most dangerous are moms protecting their cubs and bears that are regularly fed by humans for whatever reasons. In a few cases in PA I know that charges were preferred against individuals who claimed the necessity of shooting these animals for self defense. In one case cited, a homeowner came out his front door and went around his house to the back yard where he killed the bruin. He was cited, fined, and lost hunting privileges. I do not know what happened to the gun he used. My point is, be very careful not to shoot a black bear unless it is really threatening you in a demonstrable way. Be sure that the incident will be investigated. But, if the need arises, and it has, either caliber cited by the OP would be sufficient to stop the attack.

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This is good advice. I'm not in the east, but there are a ton of black bears all around where I live. The publicity I would attract by shooting one would be hell. The only thing worse would be if I shot a wild horse. The horse is probably the more dangerous of the two, but has even more hysterical advocates. You're better off punching baby koalas.

I have a Winchester .30-30 Trapper (16 inch barrel). I really don't like the recoil from the bench, and the trigger is terrible. For something coming in fast, it would be a one shot and done situation for me. I won't be able to shoot it like Chuck Connors in The Rifleman. Although it is off topic, my woods walking rifle is a Ruger PC Carbine 9mm loaded with 147 grain Buffalo Bore +P hard cast flat point Outdoorsman. I've done torture test penetration and barrier tests and it will dig deep and allow follow-up shots. I also have tested that round and Lehigh Xtreme Penetrators in my 9mm guns, and they will penetrate and dig deep as well, but not to the extent of the rifle. (I only carry handguns when archery hunting.) I have videos on all of them showing penetration against various media, but I didn't link them here because they are off topic. If you are interested, let me know. P.S. There are only black bears in my woods, not grizzlies. P.P.S. I have no experience with .44 magnum lever actions.