Compact Distance?

Carrying a gun is called Self-defense and that's an important point to keep in mind.

You are not legally or morally obligated to protect anything other than yourself and family.

First, remember do no harm.

As long as you know your limits and think of moving through life in a bubble with a radius of your limits you are doing the best you can.

In an emergency and when under stress it may be far more important and also far harder to NOT take a shot than to simply pull the trigger.

It's cute to talk about taking a head shot at 25 yards but only if you know for a surety that a 25 yard head shot on a moving target with unpredictable but very likely interference from someone who is NOT the target is in your capabilities.

It's far better to not take a shot then to do so and instead shoot the wrong person.

10-10-10

Of course if you have a 5 shot revolver you are dead!

https://www.activeresponsetraining.net/10-10-10-shooting-drill

We practice with paper plates, last time out we placed them at 7 & 25 paces and later added another at about 1/2 way between them, what I've seen as an eye opener is the run around a tree that we do with a mag change (about 10yrds). We shoot at our property so can practice drawing and rapid fire. I am more accurate with the full size semi pistols than my Shield45s but can hold mopp (minute of paper plate) at 25 paces and we paint a bullseye about 3-4" on the closer targets that is easier to hit slow fire before running, after the run back to mopp
I'm glad you're practicing and feel your accuracy will increase with practice, look for an experienced shooter to watch you shoot and give you pointers, even if you pay them it will equal out with the saved ammo expense.

jar said:

Carrying a gun is called Self-defense and that's an important point to keep in mind.

You are not legally or morally obligated to protect anything other than yourself and family.

First, remember do no harm.

As long as you know your limits and think of moving through life in a bubble with a radius of your limits you are doing the best you can.

In an emergency and when under stress it may be far more important and also far harder to NOT take a shot than to simply pull the trigger.

It's cute to talk about taking a head shot at 25 yards but only if you know for a surety that a 25 yard head shot on a moving target with unpredictable but very likely interference from someone who is NOT the target is in your capabilities.

It's far better to not take a shot then to do so and instead shoot the wrong person.

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You may not legally be obligated to take the shot, morally, all depends on your morals. Im sure a lot of people in that mall that day were glad that boy felt it was the moral thing to do. He could have just walked away. It also looks like he took being prepared seriously as well.

And since that happened, that seems to have become a "challenge" of sorts in the shooting community now. And from the few clips Ive seen of people attempting it, the results have been pretty scary. Many people cant even hit the target at that distance, let alone put 8 of 10 on it.

Im really amazed sometimes when I hear people say that its likely never going to happen to you, and you dont need to be prepared for anything but what the statistics tell them they will ever need, if that, and theres no need to go beyond that.

From what you usually see stated, I think most people are thinking backwards when it comes to things here. The whole point here, is to continually push yourself to be prepared for the "worst", not whats easy for you do and makes you feel good (those misses on the target teach you way more than the ones that are all where you think they should be too. ). You should be preparing for the worst, the best that you can, to do otherwise is simply deceiving yourself.

Being able to consistently make head shots on demand at 25 yards is simply a skill that shows a level of accuracy the shooter is capable of, and not necessarily something you would normally do. But, if you were to have a static target and the right circumstances, or even just the best and only target you're going to get, can you do it? Do you even practice making good solid body shots on demand at that distance? 25 yards is not a "long" shot, its basically only about half the distance of an average supermarket aisle or across a double parking lot bay.

The whole point here, is to be well and broadly versed in your skills, and always pushing yourself in your practice. The reality of life is, you rarely get to choose what it is you get, and you need to be as well versed in as many things as you can, to hopefully be able to deal with whatever it is you might get.

Those scenes you see on TV where the mugger squares off on you at the end of the alley, voices his intent and then just stands there and waits for you to get your gun out and chamber around are Hollywood Garbage.

I've had to actually draw my gun 3 time and in none of those instances was my "assailant" more than 8 feet from me.

The only exception was one night I threw down on a cow that I thought was a bear. It was on the other side of the fence for sure maybe 20 feet away?

Night Rider said:

The only exception was one night I threw down on a cow that I thought was a bear. It was on the other side of the fence for sure maybe 20 feet away?

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Sounds like bull to me! Sorry, I couldn't help myself.

I would be more concerned about a situation being a "good shoot" than being able to shoot 2" groups. If you ever got into a SD position the odds are the last thing on your mind would be group size.

Plan2Live said:

Sounds like bull to me! Sorry, I couldn't help myself.

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I mean, it might have been(a bull). I was at work and I was doing a perimeter check. I normally do not use my flashlight for those because all that does is make me a target.

So I'm walking along and I hear something and I turn and I light it up with my flashlight and all I could see was black fur and an eye, around here you're more likely to run into a bear than a cow so that's where my mind went and I drew. Then I heard Mooooooooooo

JDeere said:

Yep and practicing with your self defense weapon at 25 yds is BS and not necessary. See it all the time and I just shake my head. To the op your thought of 7 yds is spot on and sufficient for practice. There is a reason that yardage is used.

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Tell that to Elijah Dickens! Why is that "BS" and why would you shake your head at someone who can do it?

I think that accuracy - at least in terms of shooting groups at a particular distance - might be one of the less important factors in self-defense/CCW. Yes, there should be some kind of standard - I've seen people miss the black on a full size B-27 silhouette target, at seven yards! - but barring that kind of abysmal incompetence, I'm not sure we should worry about accuracy too much. In other words, six inches at seven yards is perfectly adequate.

I urge people to go to YouTube for footage of actual civilian gunfights, and really think about what is going on in them. Seven yard groups pale in comparison to the importance of situational awareness, shoot/no shoot decisions, cover and concealment, etc. and I agree with those who argue that finding some realistic training can be one of the best decisions the CCW man can make.

I don't spend my life and time overally obsessed and consumed with the using my firearm in a gun fight. Just like I buy home, life, health and car insurance, smoke detectors, fire extinguishers, etc but don't over obsess and study every single home insurance claim, car accident, house fire, etc.

There are many, many other things in our lives that have a much higher probability to kill us than being in a mass shooting or having to fire our firearms in self defense. Remove suicides, gang and drug crime in particular areas of the country, and domestic violence related crime where the perp is someone they knew, loved, trusted, etc, the crime rate would drop.

Nothing wrong with being prepared and skilled with your tool, but IMHO, some are taking to a whole new level.

Styx said:

I don't spend my life and time overally obsessed and consumed with the using my firearm in a gun fight. Just like I buy home, life, health and car insurance, smoke detectors, fire extinguishers, etc but don't over obsess and study every single home insurance claim, car accident, house fire, etc.

There are many, many other things in our lives that have a much higher probability to kill us than being in a mass shooting or having to fire our firearms in self defense. Remove suicides, gang and drug crime in particular areas of the country, and domestic violence related crime where the perp is someone they knew, loved, trusted, etc, the crime rate would drop.

Nothing wrong with being prepared and skilled with your tool, but IMHO, some are taking to a whole new level.

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"Geez, what's with all the insurance? Are you paranoid or something?"

Ethan Verity said:

Tell that to Elijah Dickens! Why is that "BS" and why would you shake your head at someone who can do it?

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Many can do it on a stationary target at the range. Can you do it in a surprise situation at a moving target with yourself moving and be aware of what's beyond your target? If you miss and hit an innocent bystander is it worth the price? Real life is not a video game or TV show...

As reply #4 indicated, know one’s limits. Most defensive incidents happen at CLOSE range. Start with training to handle the just-beyond-arm’s-length robbery, and then work on building additional skills, and extending the range.

Some guy named Eli was able to handle 40 yards. I am reasonably certain that he had trained, diligently, over time.

Rexster said:

As reply #4 indicated, know one’s limits. Most defensive incidents happen at CLOSE range. Start with training to handle the just-beyond-arm’s-length robbery, and then work on building additional skills, and extending the range.

Some guy named Eli was able to handle 40 yards. I am reasonably certain that he had trained, diligently, over time.

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The goal should be to not the take shots you think you can make; take only those shots you know you can make.

JDeere said:

Many can do it on a stationary target at the range. Can you do it in a surprise situation at a moving target with yourself moving and be aware of what's beyond your target?

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So, you're suggesting that since hitting a moving target while moving is difficult we give up and make no attempt to get better at it? Plenty of folks have taken shots way beyond 7 yards in defense of themselves or others. Plenty more could have done so and saved lives, if they'd had the tools, training and practice to do so.

JDeere said:

There is a reason that yardage is used.

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There certainly is. It's because it's a nice, easy distance at which to set up a range, either indoor or out.

Are you practicing drawing from a holster? If you are, good.
If not, this is something important to add to your practice beginning now.

Start with getting a holster. An OWB holster can be a good place to start, even if it is not how you will carry. You will want to practice with what you will actually carry with, but that can take some figuring out and a lot of people end up with a drawer full of holsters. Don't let not having found "the one" stop you from practicing with a good OWB "duty" type belt holster -- it's also the type you would be expected to have for most of the preliminary handgun classes.

Whether starting with a duty-type holster or what you'll use for concealed carry, begin with dry-fire practice. Make sure the gun is clear and practice drawing, engaging the support hand, presentation and sight-alignment/sight picture. Then transition to doing that in your range sessions -- hopefully the range will allow you to draw from a holster, but realize that even if they do allow drawing, they will have reasonable restrictions on things like cross-draw when you're on a firing line.

You will find that you are more likely to miss the shots immediately after drawing and after reloading and the last shot in a string before reholstering. This is often due to a lack of "follow through" on these shots where you were busy with transitioning from the previous action or to the proceeding action. If you don't want your first shot to be a miss, practice first shots from the holster. But do not let yourself always shoot 1, or always 2, or always 3. Mix it up and randomize it. If you don't have a partner at the range, you can use playing cards, or a random number generator app that you can constrain between 1 and 4.

I'm beginning to get too far away from my point, which is that adding the holster into your practice frequently and at random intervals is valuable.

jar said:

You are not legally or morally obligated to protect anything other than yourself and family.

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Legally? You're right, in most cases. Morally? That's a matter of opinion and I disagree.

One thing about doing some competition shooting is the stress component, learning how to function and carry out your task when you make a mistake and get all flustered and become left thumbs, but still being able to get the gun into action and get hits on target.

You don't need to be able to shoot tight groups, just have to get hits on target at a range of distances. I would get some man size silhouette targets and just spend some time running your gear, clearing your garment, punching the gun out and send em. As you shoot more you will undoubtedly shoot better groups. Working with somebody who is an actual trainer would be helpful too as a pro will be able to observe your grip, stance, reload, trigger discipline, etc... and correct any mistakes you are making.

I'm not an expert by any means, but your goal of putting X number of rounds in a 6" circle at Y feet is a starting point I guess, but I would say it's pretty irrelevant to your stated purpose. Go online and check out some of the different drills and work on them. Alot of them have a pressure component like time restraints, induced malfunctions, shooting from an awkward position, distance, on the move, speed, seamless reloads, etc....

I suppose casually shooting into a 6" circle at 7 yards could be good for overall familiarization with your gun and trigger work, but you're gonna want to work some additional elements into your shooting if you want to be confident in your skill set.

JDeere said:

Many can do it on a stationary target at the range. Can you do it in a surprise situation at a moving target with yourself moving and be aware of what's beyond your target? If you miss and hit an innocent bystander is it worth the price? Real life is not a video game or TV show...

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Can you do it repetitively, on demand, on the stationary target at the range?

The whole point of practicing things youre not good or comfortable with, is to become good and comfortable with them, so if you might actually need to use that skill, its not your first time trying it if and when it might happen, and you know what your capabilities are.

Would I try for a moving target at 40 or 50 yards with the handgun Im carrying? Probably not (up close? totally different subject), unless I felt there was no other choice. A static target, I wouldnt have a problem with it, given the opportunity for the shot, and I would think you would probably get that opportunity at some point.

There have been a number of instances of people making longer range shots with handguns in the not so distant past, and one of the further ones that comes to mind, was something like 75 yards on a military base where there was an active shooter and the MP took that shot, with I believe a Beretta, and stopped it.

I dont have too much trouble keeping most of my hits on a photo silhouette at 50 yards or so. They may not be the nice smaller group of hits like you usually see up close, but I can keep most of them solid body hits and any hit is a good hit, as long as its not you taking it.

I understand that longer range shooting with a handgun isnt what most practice, especially since it seems that for a lot of people, the guns they choose to carry, arent going to be the best choice for trying to do it anyway.

But then again, even up close, where things are usually considered to be more likely to happen, they really arent the best choices either. How many who carry, practice more realistically with what they carry, from how they carry it, on a regular basis? From the pics Ive seen here, Im not seeing that sort of shooting and/or targets if that is "practice".

How many shoot reactively, "up close", where everything is "supposed" to happen, while drawing from how you carry your gun, moving and quickly shooting as you go, without using the sights? That is most likely how you will need to shoot, and yet, I cant remember ever seeing anyone at the range I shoot at now (not that I see a lot of people there when I shoot), shooting like that, and we are not restricted from doing it.


So, how are you getting these sorts of skills developed and honed if you aren't actually doing it in practice? Dry fire is a real big help for a lot of things, including things like presentations, etc, but will only get you so far. You still need live fire to prove it. At least those who practice in that manner and do it regularly, will likely have some of the basic skills down to do it, but how many actually do?

This is really all a lot of hard and constant work, and thats just to get to the point youre basically competent and have some proficiency. And its not just some goal you attain, maintaining it, and continuing to learn, takes even more.

tws3b2 said:

I don't know exactly how to ask this question.
I got my carry permit about a year ago but have refused to carry my gun untill I was good enough with it. What is good enough?
Somehow, In my mind I came up with this. I must be able to consistently put all 12 rounds from my G3c into a 6" Dia. Circle at 7yds. Why 7yds. I don't know really. I think because that was the maximum distance they allowed us to shoot in carry class. That's 3" from the red dot in any direction.
I think this is where somebody is going to pop up and say " I can shoot a flea off a Nats rear end in mid flight at 60 yards". Great, Good for you. But for me? I wish.
Today, After nearly a year of really struggling. I think I'm there. Today a 100 rounds and only 3 just barely outside that Circle.
Then, at the range. A big smile on my face. Proud of my shooting today. At the check out. The guy asked," How did you do today?" I said, Pretty Good. He said. " I was watching you on the monitor. You were standing awful close to that target". Bummer. The smile was gone. Not so proud.
My question for you who carry, shoot 3" or less barrel, compact handguns.
Do you have a set accuracy, distance, or whatever limit that you set in your mind that you feel you need to meet?
Just me asking.

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Why do you feel like you might need to shoot someone 21 feet away from you? Law enforcement seeks out and intervenes into hostile situations. Are you a law enforcement officer? I would say the the standard a law officer should be proficient at with his weapon is different than what an individual needs to be for self defense.

At what distance do you feel someone is imposing a deadly threat to yourself? For me outside of about 6 feet I do not foresee myself making the decision to take someone's life. If they are pointing a gun at me from 21 feet away they already have the drop on me and trying to draw my weapon would not end well for me.

You need to evaluate for yourself what you consider a major threat to yourself and plan for such. The internet is full of yahoo's that will come up with all sorts of "what about this or that situation". "What about when Russia invades... it could happen!". "What about Martians?... they have found water on the planet! It could happen!"

After you have defined a realistic threat level then you need to have a plan of action in your mind of how you will respond. Is your primary goal to eliminate the threat? My primary goal is to remove myself from the dangerous situation as quick as possible. I am not paid to introject myself into a situation like law enforcement is and would more likely than not be spending years in jail if I did. If I can run I will run. If I can take cover I will take cover. If I HAVE to shoot I will shoot... as a last resort.

I pocket carry. When I find myself in an uncomfortable situation (unknown dark street late at night) I have my hand in my pocket on my gun positioned to draw if I need to. If a threat comes within 15 feet of me my pistol will be out of my pocket in my hand shielded from view ready for action while I am looking to avoid any confrontation.

Do you perhaps not feel comfortable carrying a firearm in public yet? I remember when I first got my permit 30 or so years ago that I did not. It wasn't until about a year later when I acquired a NAA Guardian in .32acp that I could carry and not feel constantly self conscious about it. Now days we have a lot more choices and my most carried firearm is a Diamondback DB9 because it is small enough to pocket carry but still packs 9mm's. My choice for pocket carrying is based on always being able to quickly shove a pistol in my pocket on the way out of the house without having to dress for the occasion. If I had to put on my "carry outfit" every time I just needed to run up to the corner store for a gallon of milk I would frequently not have a firearm on me at all times when I leave the house. After 30 years of carrying the biggest firearm I carry in public places is my Springfield XDS in 45acp which I carry IWB and specifically dress for. If I am going into the big city I will dress for it and I will carry it. When I am just out in the woods somewhere I might upgrade to IWB carrying my XD mod 2 compact in .45acp for a few extra rounds.

I am confident that I can keep a tight enough group at 7 yards to stay within a black ring... when not under pressure... but this is not the standard I go by for whether I will carry or not. Where you pretty new to pistols when you took the class a year ago? Have you practiced on a regular basis for the past year? Do you feel confident in your ability to draw your weapon and fire it? Do you have an idea in your head about what constitutes a meaningful threat to you in which you would draw your pistol? Do you have an idea in your head about what circumstance would cause you take someone else's life? For me there is a fine line between drawing my weapon and firing it at someone. If I am not prepared to fire it I won't draw it.

What is your carry weapon? How big is it? How confident do you feel about being able to effectively conceal the weapon? Personally I don't think that your proficiency at 21 feet is your real hang up. I think it most likely has more to do with your confidence in carrying in general... coming to terms with when you will or will not draw your weapon... coming to terms with when you will or will not shoot.

But then again, I more likely than not could just be completely full of cr@p! ...this is the Internet after all!

If I can draw and empty the handgun quickly, hitting a paper dessert plate every time at seven yards, that handgun is probably accurate enough for me for SD.

Get a 22 handgun and you'll be able to practice more. 22's are great practice.

Shooting a snub 38 DAO a lot in the past few years has also helped me improve my all-around handgun shooting.

OP mentioned a red dot. Red dots are mounted fairly high above the bore axis. This means they have more offset. If you're shooting at 10 inches from the target, your bullet could be 1.5" lower than your point of aim (the red dot). As you increase your range, the bullet's trajectory crosses the axis of the red dot. They converge at the "zero." Beyond the zero, the bullet falls below the red dot's axis, unless a very short zero is set and then the bullet's path will arc above the axis of the red dot before falling below it again at a second zero.

This can affect how you practice at difference distances. The "hit zone" or vital area of a human target has often been interpreted as a 6" diameter circle. I think the IPSC "A" zone is 5.9" wide. If that is good or not won't be my concern at the moment. If we use a "full-size" target at 3 yards, 5 yards, and 7 yards, we might adjust the red dot zero to 7 yards. We'll hit a little low at closer ranges, but being 1" off our point of aim is not concerning. If we begin to shoot at 15 yards, we might find our zero is off and our point of impact is 1.5" high. Again, this isn't a concern with the size target we're practicing for. It could become a concern if we were to shoot at longer ranges. A 7 yard zero could put us many inches off at 50 yards. Maybe that does not matter, but be aware.

Someone might set a 25 yard or 50 yard zero on their handgun and then they will always be a little bit low at the closest ranges, but not by more than the offset (about 1.5"). At the longer ranges, their point of impact will be closer to the point of aim.

If smaller targets are used to simulate greater distances, this will be a factor. Suppose you always shoot at 7 yards, but shrink your "hit zone." Striving for accuracy on a smaller target at close range should translate to being accurate on a bigger target at long range. Short distances are convenient. Your indoor range doesn't have to be so big. Even outdoors, people don't have to walk so far to the targets. They get back to the line faster. Be aware that the greater red dot offset is going to mess you with more than people using sights right above the barrel axis. Hitting a 1" target at 7 yards is like hitting a 6" target at 50 yards -- except that your red dot offset will mean you hit the 1" @ 7 yards below the point of aim, maybe you even need to aim just above the 1" circle to hit it. If you zero your red dot to converge with the bullet at 7 yards, then when you go to shoot a target at a true 50 yards, the point of impact could be 4" high.

MikeInOr said:

Why do you feel like you might need to shoot someone 21 feet away from you?

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Because they're shooting at me? How close do they need to be before their bullets are a lethal threat?
This question really sounds amateurish. If you've not heard the reasonable arguments for shooting at distances greater than 7 yards, you've not been paying attention or thinking critically.