Compact Distance?

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Archie said:
I find a 8.5x11 sheet of copy paper (typically the one's fouled up and of no original use) at seven to ten yards (depends on range used and mood) is about what I would expect defensive conditions to be. Your groups will get smaller as you get better and more confident. Remember to keep those groups centered on where YOU think they should be going; that is, they should land where YOU intended them. ("Sighting in" is the normal phrase.) As one learns trigger control and such, the center of the group may change (to the better). Work with this idea instead of against it.

Remember:
... the first shot delivered is more important than a rapid barrage.
... 'time' does not begin when someone blows the whistle or the timer beeps. It starts when the villain decides YOU are a threat.
... do not - for practice - assume a special position. Doing so when confronted will signal your intentions; doing so will not account for various problems you might face.
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This is basically what my combative pistol instructor said.
If you hit every shot dead center of an 8.5x11 sheet you need to shoot faster. If you miss the paper,shoot slower and more deliberate.
 
MikeInOr said:
Why do you feel like you might need to shoot someone 21 feet away from you? Law enforcement seeks out and intervenes into hostile situations. Are you a law enforcement officer? I would say the the standard a law officer should be proficient at with his weapon is different than what an individual needs to be for self defense.

At what distance do you feel someone is imposing a deadly threat to yourself? For me outside of about 6 feet I do not foresee myself making the decision to take someone's life. If they are pointing a gun at me from 21 feet away they already have the drop on me and trying to draw my weapon would not end well for me.

You need to evaluate for yourself what you consider a major threat to yourself and plan for such. The internet is full of yahoo's that will come up with all sorts of "what about this or that situation". "What about when Russia invades... it could happen!". "What about Martians?... they have found water on the planet! It could happen!"

After you have defined a realistic threat level then you need to have a plan of action in your mind of how you will respond. Is your primary goal to eliminate the threat? My primary goal is to remove myself from the dangerous situation as quick as possible. I am not paid to introject myself into a situation like law enforcement is and would more likely than not be spending years in jail if I did. If I can run I will run. If I can take cover I will take cover. If I HAVE to shoot I will shoot... as a last resort.

I pocket carry. When I find myself in an uncomfortable situation (unknown dark street late at night) I have my hand in my pocket on my gun positioned to draw if I need to. If a threat comes within 15 feet of me my pistol will be out of my pocket in my hand shielded from view ready for action while I am looking to avoid any confrontation.

Do you perhaps not feel comfortable carrying a firearm in public yet? I remember when I first got my permit 30 or so years ago that I did not. It wasn't until about a year later when I acquired a NAA Guardian in .32acp that I could carry and not feel constantly self conscious about it. Now days we have a lot more choices and my most carried firearm is a Diamondback DB9 because it is small enough to pocket carry but still packs 9mm's. My choice for pocket carrying is based on always being able to quickly shove a pistol in my pocket on the way out of the house without having to dress for the occasion. If I had to put on my "carry outfit" every time I just needed to run up to the corner store for a gallon of milk I would frequently not have a firearm on me at all times when I leave the house. After 30 years of carrying the biggest firearm I carry in public places is my Springfield XDS in 45acp which I carry IWB and specifically dress for. If I am going into the big city I will dress for it and I will carry it. When I am just out in the woods somewhere I might upgrade to IWB carrying my XD mod 2 compact in .45acp for a few extra rounds.

I am confident that I can keep a tight enough group at 7 yards to stay within a black ring... when not under pressure... but this is not the standard I go by for whether I will carry or not. Where you pretty new to pistols when you took the class a year ago? Have you practiced on a regular basis for the past year? Do you feel confident in your ability to draw your weapon and fire it? Do you have an idea in your head about what constitutes a meaningful threat to you in which you would draw your pistol? Do you have an idea in your head about what circumstance would cause you take someone else's life? For me there is a fine line between drawing my weapon and firing it at someone. If I am not prepared to fire it I won't draw it.

What is your carry weapon? How big is it? How confident do you feel about being able to effectively conceal the weapon? Personally I don't think that your proficiency at 21 feet is your real hang up. I think it most likely has more to do with your confidence in carrying in general... coming to terms with when you will or will not draw your weapon... coming to terms with when you will or will not shoot.

But then again, I more likely than not could just be completely full of cr@p! ...this is the Internet after all!
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WoW. After reading all that. Well , To tell the truth I didn't really read all that. After the first paragraph I got tired and took a nap.
But to answer your first question. I really don't think I'm going to need to shoot anybody at over 21 feet.
Maybe tomorrow. After another nap I'll read the rest.
 
JDeere said:
Yep and practicing with your self defense weapon at 25 yds is BS and not necessary.
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*Is* it unnecessary BS, though?

If someone starts running at you, they can cover 7 yards in 1.5 seconds. If it takes you 3 seconds to make a shoot/no-shoot decision, draw, and double tap, the bad guy just ran 14 or 15 yards.

Therefore if you expect your maximum shot to be 7 yards, your "engagement space" is actually 21 yards.

Practicing at 25 yards isn't BS. It's common sense based on real-world data.
 
tws3b2 said:
But to answer your first question. I really don't think I'm going to need to shoot anybody at over 21 feet.
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Why don't you think that? Do you know how fast the typical 15-25 YO male (the age demographic for most criminals) can cover 21 feet? Can you draw your weapon and put him down in under 1.5 seconds? That doesn't just mean get the gun out and make noise that fast. It means getting it out and putting bullets in places that will disable a fit, determined human in 2 seconds or less. Do you know how hard it is to do that?
 
You are doing fine! Keep practicing what your doing. Get comfortable with your gun to the point it feels natural. Just one suggestion, vary the range from contact, the 7 yards you mentioned to out a bit farther. Get used to what targets looks like at those distances, no tunnel vision. You are ahead of the game compared to some shooters I see.
 
I’m weird for accuracy.

it wasn't that long ago I posted a 100 yard target and mentioned shooting an active shooter across the food court. At a mall. And, was roundly criticized by some.

I generally shoot at 7 yards up to 50 yards at a 3/4 size IDPA steel target. As long as I hear a clang, I’m good.

And now. It happened. A mall shooter at 40 yards.

Depending on your mindset. You may, or may not, have to feel comfortable taking a 50 yard shot. Most people, understandably, just want to get out of the situation and or stop the immediate threat.

Put up an IDPA target at 7-10 yards. Shoot as fast as comfortable. If the rounds are in the B ring, you’re probably fine.

If you miss the target completely. Slow down. Hitting someone you don’t need to shoot is counterproductive.

I’m certain Indiana mall shorter did not score all those hits at 40 yards. He hit him. Dropped him and moved in to plant him in the ground.

That skinny little turd was not standing there soaking up rounds. And, I’m OK with that.

Do what you can do, reliably, and carry on.

Having watched other people shoot. You are way ahead of the game.
 
I think I'm just going to continue on with the way I'm going. And, I think I'm at the point where I can carry my gun with confidence that I can handle myself in most - likely situations. Another couple hundred rounds at 7yds and I will see where I can go from there.
Thanks Guys
 
tws3b2 said:
I think I'm just going to continue on with the way I'm going. And, I think I'm at the point where I can carry my gun with confidence that I can handle myself in most - likely situations. Another couple hundred rounds at 7yds and I will see where I can go from there.
Thanks Guys
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Most people who carry never have to use their weapon, so you're probably right.
 
I can keep my 1911 shots on a paper plate at 10 yards slow firing. I can't see much need for additional distance. Training to shoot the same faster seems worthwhile to me.
 
tws3b2 said:
carry my gun with confidence
Click to expand...
that is half the battle!

how much do you dry-fire? at what do you aim (whole target, centered circle, etc.)?

suggest you aim at a "belly button" at the center of your target. the goal is to automatically aim this way every time you "shoot" your gun.

dry-fire ten minutes every day will help tremendously. [no ammo in the area, please].

luck,

murf
 
murf said:
that is half the battle!

how much do you dry-fire? at what do you aim (whole target, centered circle, etc.)?

suggest you aim at a "belly button" at the center of your target. the goal is to automatically aim this way every time you "shoot" your gun.

dry-fire ten minutes every day will help tremendously. [no ammo in the area, please].

luck,

murf
Click to expand...

Dry fire is fantastic.

Might I suggest Sternum instead of belly button. Under stress, or while flinch, folks have a tendency to shoot low anyway. The sternum, absolutely center of the target, may still get someone that belly button shot.
:)
 
sgt127 said:
Dry fire is fantastic.

Might I suggest Sternum instead of belly button. Under stress, or while flinch, folks have a tendency to shoot low anyway. The sternum, absolutely center of the target, may still get someone that belly button shot.
:)
Click to expand...
actually, i am trying to get the op to shoot at a small round target (aim small, hit small). if the op gets that idea down pat, the bellybutton can be placed anywhere, even in the center of a sternum.

murf
 
marsofold said:
I can keep my 1911 shots on a paper plate at 10 yards slow firing. I can't see much need for additional distance. Training to shoot the same faster seems worthwhile to me.
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The distance is well within the range of the most plausible risks.

The paper plate is fine.

The issue is "slow firing". Consider the potential need to achieve three or four hits to damage aa key internal body part, and consider that a charging assailant is likely to move five meters in one second.

Work on rapidity of fire.
 
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sgt127 said:
I’m weird for accuracy.
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So am I.

I agree the typical range for self-defense engagements is 5 to 7 yards. Having said that, NOTHING in my life has been 'typical'. Why should it straighten up now?
The episode of the Indiana hero was out of the 'typical'. But he did it anyway. Does anyone - barring the villain and possibly the villain's Mother (it is her job) - object to this victory?
According to the reports, the distance in question was 40 yards. Assuming the villain was moving perpendicular to the hero, that presents a target about half of the current "squared off cardboard" silhouette target. All things considered, not a tiny target, but not huge, either.

Keeping all one's shots on a 8.5x11 inch paper is sufficient for average, typical self defense. However, one should not be satisfied (permanently) with that. Shooting at 50 or 100 yards and being able to hit reliably will increase one's legitimate confidence and ability at closer ranges.
 
Tinman357 said:
9" paper plate at 25 yards is my go to practice. Most days, all on plate. Not every day. I do "small group" slow shooting as often as possible. I won't be satisfied until I can keep them all in 3" at 25yds. Progress is slow.
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With a compact?
 
You got the whole gamut of responses here. Next time try asking an easier question like Is it ok to drop the slide on an empty 1911 or what’s better for self defense 9mm or 45.acp?

The most simple thing you can do to improve your accuracy is use a slightly smaller target. Buy a roll of 4in splatterburst targets. You can stick them on a regular target or even a piece of 8.5x11 sheet of paper. The smaller target will help you focus and I guarantee that within no time using a 6 in target will feel like cheating.
 
I think you have to decide whether you want to shoot bullseye, and tight little groups at your leisure, or if you want more realistic, practical combat accuracy shot under a bit of pressure.

At the distances the OP is talking here, you should be able to quickly dump a bunch of rounds into a sheet of printer paper, just looking over the top of the gun with your focus on the target, not the sights. You wont be getting those tight little bullseye groups, but I'll bet most of the rounds will be right where you were looking, and you can cover the hits on target, with a softball or small 'lope.

Give it a try it at 5 yards and see for yourself.
 
SimonRL.. Yes, Sig p365. 9" paper plate at 25yds is a good baseline. Like I said, most days I keep them on the plate, others not so much.

Yes, I need more practice, I know that.

I do slow fire for smallest group at 25yd. Looking to get down to 3" with my g-17.

Progress is slow.

What was your point?
 
I just use a 8x11 sheet of paper with a stick on 1" dot as a aiming point. Most times as a target. For indoor shooting if they have automatic target runners, I'll put the target on backwards with a 1" dot winning point.

Gun selection is also relevant as some guns just aren't going to group worth a crap.
I know I can't hit crap with a Glock, they just don't "feel" good to me. I'm a old 1911 shooter, my EDC is a Sig Sauer C3, has been around 15 years. I can be on paper at 25m with it easily.
My wife has a G2C and can put all her shots on target at 7y (8x11 paper).

If you want a tough drill. Use a 5x8 index card, start at 3y, shoot a complete magazine (or 8 rounds) until all shots hit the card. Then move back 3y. Repeat out to 21y. If you miss, start over.
When you can do this consistently, switch to a 3x5 card.
I've shot this drill hundreds of times, it can suck since days. Bring lots of ammo, I run this drill with a Dan Wesson Guardian in 9mm.

Check out some of the Wilson Combat drills as well on YouTube.
 
tws3b2 said:
I don't know exactly how to ask this question.
I got my carry permit about a year ago but have refused to carry my gun untill I was good enough with it. What is good enough?
Click to expand...

Having the presence of mind to ask that question, set a pragmatic goal and then work towards it, is good enough.

You're talking about carrying a gun, so that if you find someone threatening your very existence, you can defend yourself. There is no quantitative minimum standard required to attempt to preserve your own life.

You are overthinking it. Stop overthinking it.
 
Tinman357 said:
SimonRL.. Yes, Sig p365. 9" paper plate at 25yds is a good baseline. Like I said, most days I keep them on the plate, others not so much.

Yes, I need more practice, I know that.

I do slow fire for smallest group at 25yd. Looking to get down to 3" with my g-17.

Progress is slow.

What was your point?
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It wasn’t trying to make a point. I consider myself a pretty deft shooter and I shoot 25yds pretty regularly, but not with a compact. My compacts are a P365 and a P30sk and like you I can hit a paper plate but consistently hitting 3 in groups is an ambitious goal. I can do it with my P226 Legion, but either of my compacts not so much so. I assume we’re talking offhand, not from a rest. Are you going to make me up my game?
 
SimonRL; No my High Road friend, I was kinda hoping you'd make me up mine some. I was downplaying it some, with my standard P365 I rarely miss the plate unless I'm mag dumping. :D

All offhand. No bench.

While I do practice for 3" at 25yd with my G17, its pretty routine after a warm up. Cold, not so much. I judge my shooting baseline on the first mag, but its usually pretty close to 5", usually.

I am trying to get a solid, reliable 3" @ 25 with the 365. The little thing is capable of it, but I may not be. :(

Below is a 14rd string I shot cold with my 3" 686+. First time out with it, it surprised me. All shots were DA at a good pace of about 10 seconds per cylinder. The first 7 were a tad low/left so I adjusted up/over 1 click and it tightened up nicely. :)

Dry practice certainly paid off with this one, helped with shooting all the other ones as well. Now I always start my practice sessions with the 686 and finish up with my EDC.

View attachment 1096117

To the OP, you are shooting good. Keep at it. Move away from your comfort zone when practicing. Smaller targets or further away. It'll become second nature.

On the other hand, I have a G21 that won't hit the ground if I drop it. I swear that gun couldn't hit a barn if I was shooting from the inside. But a friend of mine can hit pretty well with it. Go figure.:cuss::cuss:
 
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