1986 Miami-Dade: .357 Magnum or .38 Special?

AJC1 said:
What I don't get is they already had the solution in their hands. Change to 357, not spend millions to develop a 10mm to nuter it to 40. That was a huge waste of time and money.
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The solution already in their hands was insure agents could make hits. Instead, the FBI and the culture decided to concentrate on doodads and gimmicks rather than ability.
 
JohnKSa said:
If you delve into the firefight, there was actually some decent rationale for going to autopistols--so they were not really looking at revolver rounds.

The FBI didn't develop the 10mm, it had been around for a few years before the 1986 firefight. What they did was determine that they could get it to meet their new spec with a lighter loading--a discovery that led to the invention of the .40S&W.
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The correct revision was bring a rifle to a rifle fight. A lot of people focus on the sidearm but the law enforcement shifted toward military doctrine and started focusing on long guns for real power.
 
I think it was on this forum we had a return to mayberry thread, and why the cops look like the military now.

Hopefully this thread answered some of those questions.

Someone here said this was a turning point for the Stasi...err FBI. Hay special agent reading this post that is a joke....really a joke.

This is common place and you can look back on every "big" shooting deal going back to charles whitman to north hollywood, and after each one changes are made to "deal" with this last issue that came up. I seem to remember reading on the Newhall shooting that they found the police had put the spent brass in their pockets. The person at the range did not want to clean up brass so this is how they did it. That changed. It can be as simple to that, to seeing fewer and fewer shotguns in cars and more AR type rifles, and cops wearing outer carriers.
 
WrongHanded said:
I know what you mean, but in 1986 I think there were probably still some old ex-Border Patrol gunfighters hanging around who might have had something to add.

And as far as the FBI academy and 4K of pistol rounds goes, it sounds like a lot.....until you consider many of them have probably not spent much of any time shooting prior to that point. It's entirely possible some of them have never held a pistol before in their lives.
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You are right about the fact some were new to firearms. In my class only 50-60% were former LE/military and knew what they were about. The first time on the range my shooting bay instructor came over and said I wouldn’t see him much at all as he was going to have to spend time with the “new shooters”. Since I already knew how, I was on my own.
 
Double Naught Spy said:
Interestingly, the brass in the pockets story is just a myth. The training response that has resulted, is not based in fact.
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I'm amazed that this myth is still going around.

A CHP directive to insure the trainees were "Not Allowed" to pocket their brass was issued, but it wasn't based on the fact that spent brass was found pocketed in an officer's jacket. The myth started when folks decided to blend the two occurrences together.

It is like the Tueller Drilll, better known as the 21 Foot Rule. The drill was to demonstrate at what distance the LE trainee should consider other alternatives to drawing his handgun when attacked with a bladed weapon...it was designed to encourage development of hand-to-hand skills when the attacker was within 21 feet. I have heard it interpreted as being justified to use deadly force within 21 feet...that isn't what the drill is about
 
WrongHanded said:
Interesting isn't it. The FBI aren't really trained gun fighters, but there's an assumption that they know what equipment is best for gun fighting.
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Well I just used what Uncle Sam gave me at the time. Other than that, being a veteran of the Houston, TX, combat zone for 18 years is my other qualification.
 
JohnKSa said:
The bullet went through the upper arm on an angle for 3-4" of penetration, exited unshored (equivalent to 2-4" of penetration) under the arm, entered the chest from the side already expanded and then penetrated 7-8" into the chest. French's book has diagrams and autopsy photographs showing all that very clearly. Equivalent penetration if the upper arm hadn't been in the way would have been 12" to 16"--well within the spec that the FBI adopted after the shootout.
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Circa 1986 Winchester 9mm 115gr STHP penetrated 10.5".
 
Double Naught Spy said:
Interestingly, the brass in the pockets story is just a myth. The training response that has resulted, is not based in fact.

https://www.police1.com/officer-sho...ght-on-the-newhall-incident-qCwXs8stVK31qmSC/
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Hmm, don't remember the article but it did talk about that. I wonder how they came to the resolution it was a myth. Go to the range master all mad his policy got people dead and he said....oh no I never said that.

Had to be something as you said it was a myth.
 
DR505 said:
You are right about the fact some were new to firearms. In my class only 50-60% were former LE/military and knew what they were about. The first time on the range my shooting bay instructor came over and said I wouldn’t see him much at all as he was going to have to spend time with the “new shooters”. Since I already knew how, I was on my own.
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In talking to several other instructors, both civilian as well as law enforcement it is the "people that know how" are the ones that need the most instruction, and are the hardest to train correctly. And men are more difficult over women.
 
WrongHanded said:
Interesting isn't it. The FBI aren't really trained gun fighters, but there's an assumption that they know what equipment is best for gun fighting.
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That's why the FBI convened its 1987 Wound Ballistics Workshop to bring together Wound Ballistics SMEs.

Prior to the workshop, law enforcement agencies, including FBI, referred to the Relative Incapacitation Index (RII) developed by the Law Enforcement Assistance Administration (LEAA) to choose duty ammunition.

The Winchester 9mm 115gr STHP had a high RII rating.
 
Remington1911 said:
In talking to several other instructors, both civilian as well as law enforcement it is the "people that know how" are the ones that need the most instruction, and are the hardest to train correctly. And men are more difficult over women.
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That is not always the case. The former cops and military guys...like me (both LE/Military)...who had been correctly trained previously did not need remedial. I was an LE instructor for 20 years and can attest to this.
 
Shawn Dodson said:
That's why the FBI convened its 1987 Wound Ballistics Workshop to bring together Wound Ballistics SMEs.

Prior to the workshop, law enforcement agencies, including FBI, referred to the Relative Incapacitation Index (RII) developed by the Law Enforcement Assistance Administration (LEAA) to choose duty ammunition.

The Winchester 9mm 115gr STHP had a high RII rating.
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RII huh? Never heard of it til now. But I do hear a whole lot about penetration and expansion in gelatin, which honestly seems besides the point to me.
 
citizenconn said:
I've read fairly extensively on the subject and my personal opinion, which might not match those of others, is that the FBI agents who confronted the suspects were outgunned. More than that, their training did not prepare them to go up against former military trained adversaries whose first instinct was to shoot their way out of the situation. Police/law enforcement mentality/tactics vs military mentality/tactics.
Several agents also had setbacks right from the start (losing glasses, losing firearms, firearms becoming inoperable.) They were somewhat effective in hitting the suspects but not in stopping them DRT. Revolvers against a Mini 14 and a shotgun proved to be a lopsided encounter. Had they been able to wait for some of the other agents who were more effectively armed, things would have possibly ended very differently.
I've never been in law enforcement, only in the military, so I'm speculating, but it seems to me the current prevalence of the SWAT type training and mentality is what resulted from this and similar encounters, Uvalde withstanding.
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This right here. The FBI, at one time, had the premier gunfighting course in LE. But they sat on their laurels and never really looked around at the world (to be fair neither did most of LE at the time). I was told by an old firearms instructor a long time ago that the FBI is really good at what they do; investigations. When they try to do real police work is when it all goes south. Of course, after the shootout they HAD to do something and place the blame SOMEWHERE - so, instead of revamping their training (which they eventually did) they blamed the cartridge's used - especially the 9mm. Then they tried to give the accountants and lawyers that made up the field force a 1 ton boat anchor with a cartridge that was like a howitzer shell...hmmm, who saw that going wrong?
 
WrongHanded said:
RII huh? Never heard of it til now. But I do hear a whole lot about penetration and expansion in gelatin, which honestly seems besides the point to me.
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The bullet must reach and pass through vitals to be effective in stopping a determined attacker. Fackler defined vitals as the heart and great vessels of the torso.
 
CharlieFox42 said:
This right here. The FBI, at one time, had the premier gunfighting course in LE. But they sat on their laurels and never really looked around at the world (to be fair neither did most of LE at the time). I was told by an old firearms instructor a long time ago that the FBI is really good at what they do; investigations. When they try to do real police work is when it all goes south. Of course, after the shootout they HAD to do something and place the blame SOMEWHERE - so, instead of revamping their training (which they eventually did) they blamed the cartridge's used - especially the 9mm. Then they tried to give the accountants and lawyers that made up the field force a 1 ton boat anchor with a cartridge that was like a howitzer shell...hmmm, who saw that going wrong?
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The FBI issued a reduced velocity 10mm JHP load. It never issued full power 10mm ammo because the reduced velocity load achieved the FBI's penetration requirement better than 9mm and .45 ACP.
 
Shawn Dodson said:
The FBI issued a reduced velocity 10mm JHP load. It never issued full power 10mm ammo because the reduced velocity load achieved the FBI's penetration requirement better than 9mm and .45 ACP.
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I would challenge the penetration claim relative to the .45 ACP but as to the reduced 10mm load you're right. A collaboration between Smith & Wesson and Federal ensued as a result and a cartridge that duplicated that reduced 10mm load's ballistics with a shorter COL became the .40 Short & Wimpy Smith & Wesson.
The only thing more remarkable than the speed with which the .40 S&W was adopted by law enforcement agencies is the speed with which they have abandoned it.
The 40 was the solution to a problem that never existed.
 
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Old_Grouch said:
I would challenge the penetration claim relative to the .45 ACP but as to the reduced 10mm load you're right. A collaboration between Smith & Wesson and Federal ensued as a result and a cartridge that duplicated that reduced 10mm load's ballistics with a shorter COL became the .40 Short & Wimpy Smith & Wesson.
The only thing more remarkable than the speed with which the .40 S&W was adopted by law enforcement agencies is the speed with which they have abandoned it.
The 40 was the solution to a problem that never existed.
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.40 S&W addressed a specific terminal performance problem at the time that 9mm and .45 ACP eventually caught up with.
 
Shawn Dodson said:
Lungs are not vitals that will cause blood loss in rate and quantity to reliably compel involuntary physiological incapacitation when damaged by a handgun bullet in a common combat caliber.
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Sounds very limiting. Significant damage to one lung would reduce oxygenated blood flow to the heart (and therefore also the brain) by approximately half. Which obviously is not the most desirable result, but certainly a nice "consolation prize" for missing the heart and major blood vessels. Of course, if the cartridge being used doesn't do much wounding damage, it's not going to work very well.

So it kinda depends on what "common combat caliber" means, I suppose. People handgun hunt with 10mm and .357 Magnum by taking lung shots on deer. Yeah it's often a double lung not a single, but if it didn't work people wouldn't keep doing it. So therefore it must work, and with cartridges that are fairly common and popular.

I do wonder what percentage of people "stopped" by LE through use of a pistol actually end up being hit in the heart or large vessels of the torso. That would be very interesting to know.
 
Shawn Dodson said:
.40 S&W addressed a specific terminal performance problem at the time that 9mm and .45 ACP eventually caught up with.
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Right. The .45 ACP is has always been notable for its lack of penetration.
At the time the FBI's objection to the .45 ACP was that it was too much gun for the more recoil sensitive, smaller framed agents. The same argument was applied to the full power 10mm. Hence, the .40 Short & Wimpy.
There were several calibers available at the time that would have met the requirements. .357 Magnum being the most obvious, but .45 Colt, ,44 Special, .44 Magnum, .41 Magnum. Oh, but revolvers are so passé! We need a semi-auto.
The 125 grain loading for the .38 Super is a near twin, ballistically, to the same .357 load. It had been around for right at 60 years at the time. Longer than the .357.
 
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