Compare with Screen Fiction

The fortunate thing for that police officer was failure of vehicle to remain in PARK.
That extra half-second certainly helped give him time to pivot and save his life.

I'm not sure I would have been fast enough. Maybe in his shoes, open carry on the job and half-way expecting trouble all the time... My hat is off to the fellow, at any rate.

Realistically, carrying IWB under a shirt, minding my own business? I dunno. Having a car pull up to me like that, with the driver being weird, would have had my attention for sure. But it takes me about 1.5 seconds to get my gun out from concealment, not counting reaction time. It would have been close, and I suspect it may well have been hand-to-and, at least at the start.

Kleanbore said:

I think most people I know would likely have still been standing with their mouths open while receiving lethal blows from the hatchet.

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Darwinism is a thing.

Kleanbore said:

Would you expect someone stopping next to you in a car to jump out and try to kill you without warning?

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You wouldn't?

There really are a few crazies around - that you might have to outrun to even have a chance at surviving an encounter with…

my best advice to any armed citizen is do whatever is necessary to defend yourself - and it’s entirely possible that weapon you’re carrying may not be your salvation in a close encounter.

Kleanbore said:

No.

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There was an MVA in my town last weekend. According to the news report (which we all know isn't the whole story) the driver of the car that was hit got out of his car and started shooting at the other driver. The news report didn't mention any other provocation than the accident.

I've had people pull up to me in traffic while I was at work in a marked company vehicle and armed and start talking crap to me.

I've also had homeless people wait till I was stuck in traffic and start trying to strong arm me into a "donation".

I may not drive around with the expectation that somebody's literally going to attack me with an axe in traffic but I never assume that I'm safe just because I'm sitting in my car.

No one can just let videos roll. You gave us the warning, we ran the children out of the room…and you edit the video…

Kleanbore said:

I suspect that most people will be amazed at how quickly the officer reacted--and at how fast he drew.

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I would have been but the officer already had his hand on his firearm before the hatchet guy even got out of the car. A sub 2 second Mozambique from concealment isn’t that hard, with a little practice but it’s a heck of a lot easier if you already have your grip on the firearm.

The oddness of stopping that close to the officer here.



Put him at an elevated sense of danger and he gets hold of his side arm and moves away from the vehicle putting his back in a direction he can retreat to. He may not add space between himself and a charging attacker but he can add time before the two are in contact with each other.



This allows time for the other stuff we are unable to see.

If I were a betting man at this point, my money would be on the officer. The hatchet guy has already lost, doesn’t even have two feet on the ground after exiting the car and the officer has increased distance, drawn and aimed his firearm and is ready to make quick splits. He would have had a better chance just walking down the street casually.

On more than one occasion on the street years ago I took one look at a situation or individual, and immediately backed up or off far enough to provide time to move into a good defensive posture before the party started. That included moving to where I was behind cover or close to it - while also placing a possible assailant in as much disadvantage as possible. Much, much more to say about this but not here…

Some people's Spidey senses are better than others. You can call it intuition, but it unconscious data processing of human behavior. And it happens fast. Often much faster than conscious thought.

The Gift of Fear is an excellent insight into such aspects of the mind.

And yes, the false stop gave the cop a couple precious seconds to get his hand on his gun and start moving.

hso said:

It has been said by professionals that you can't live in condition yellow.

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That's interesting because the guy who invented the Cooper color code very specifically said you can live in yellow for the rest of your life.

Also let's not forget I outlined a very specific situation. I'm in my car, I'm stopped in traffic. Specific situation, not going to be there for too awfully long. It is a primary place for people to get ambushed.

Yes, I am going to be in a heightened state of alert in that situation. Really, you should be in a heightened state of alert anytime you're driving a vehicle in traffic. Traffic accidents are a thing

What? You saying bad guys are not going to drop when hit by a 25 acp like in the James Bond movies.
Lot of James Bond discussion in this 25 acp thread:
https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?threads/pocket-25-automatic.909226/

@Kleanbore posted a video of actual self defense , but to SOME people it doesn't apply because it is LE involved and they are not LE.
Here is a civilian example where attacker takes multiple hits but is not quickly incapacitated (like happens in a James Bond movie).



So, that example is valid to those that don't think LE incidents applicable to them, right? Nope.
That incident happened in a liquor store and they don't work in a liquor store, therefore it doesn't apply.

Okay, here is another, action about 45 seconds in:


Silly me, he said that guy is a competitive shooter, that example is inapplicable unless one is a competitive shooter, lives in a different country, and its dark. (roll eyes simile)

CDW4ME said:

Silly me, he said that guy is a competitive shooter, that example is inapplicable unless one is a competitive shooter, lives in a different country, and its dark. (roll eyes simile)

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And willing to shoot people whom are no longer a threat.

This is BG face down on the sidewalk after being shot as the “victim” engages the distant target.



And this is the victim engaging the face down guy again, who hasn’t moved since last being shot.

Lying on the ground does not necessarily constitute "no longer a threat."

hso said:

It isn't likely. It has been said by professionals that you can't live in condition yellow.

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Professionals who apparently have "yellow" and "orange" confused.

bdickens said:

Lying on the ground does not necessarily constitute "no longer a threat."

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I can certainly agree with that.

How about on the ground, face down and not moving, at all, after already being shot ~8 times?

bdickens said:

Professionals who apparently have "yellow" and "orange" confused.

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Thanks for giving me that tag.

I posted a video here several months ago of Jeff Cooper himself explaining "The Cooper Color Code."

He described it as

White: Unaware. Not even a thought that you may have to defend yourself.

Yellow: General awareness that the world is not necessarily a safe place and you may have cause to defend yourself today.

Cooper then went on to state very specifically that you can live in "Condition Yellow" for the rest of your life.

Orange: Specific cause for concern. As Cooper put it "I may have cause to defend myself against that specific person today.

Red: Definite threat. The threat is engaging you specifically and you're making If/Then decisions. " If the threat crosses this line Then I'm going to draw". Right up to " If the threat crosses this line Then I'm going to shoot.

Black: I don't know if I ever heard Cooper say "Condition Black" in his video. But that's when all other options have been exhausted and you are engaging with deadly force.

I worked nights as a security guard for 15 years. Traffic stops were not part of my duties but I did have cause to approach vehicles frequently and I handled it the same way I saw the police do it. The only difference being that I made it Crystal Clear immediately that my only interest interacting with the person was to get them to leave the property. I would often give them suggestions as to where they could park that wasn't on my property. Because I didn't care what they did as long as they left my client's property.

Had I been speaking to the occupants of car A and car B pulled up next to us and stopped I definitely would have attempted to get out from between the two vehicles and I absolutely would have had my hand on my gun.

Night Rider said:

I worked nights as a security guard for 15 years. Traffic stops were not part of my duties but I did have cause to approach vehicles frequently and I handled it the same way I saw the police do it. The only difference being that I made it Crystal Clear immediately that my only interest interacting with the person was to get them to leave the property. I would often give them suggestions as to where they could park that wasn't on my property. Because I didn't care what they did as long as they left my client's property.

Had I been speaking to the occupants of car A and car B pulled up next to us and stopped I definitely would have attempted to get out from between the two vehicles and I absolutely would have had my hand on my gun.

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I agree...when the guy drove up like that the alarm bells would have been ringing wide open for me...not that he 100% intended to do something stupid but he sure was giving signals as if that was the case.

CDW4ME said:

Silly me, he said that guy is a competitive shooter, that example is inapplicable unless one is a competitive shooter, lives in a different country, and its dark. (roll eyes simile)

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jmorris said:

And willing to shoot people whom are no longer a threat.

This is BG face down on the sidewalk after being shot as the “victim” engages the distant target.

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Prior to that the benefit of a fast draw was seen and their were skills displayed by the shooter.

.38 Special said:

I'm not sure I would have been fast enough. Maybe in his shoes, open carry on the job and half-way expecting trouble all the time... My hat is off to the fellow, at any rate.

No one knows what they would have done unless they are looking BACK on something that they actually did in the past tense. The same person still doesn't know what they will do next time, if there is a next time. Experiences teach lessons or reinforce lessons already learned and give an indicator of what future performance MAY look like in a similar situation.

Realistically, carrying IWB under a shirt, minding my own business? I dunno. Having a car pull up to me like that, with the driver being weird, would have had my attention for sure. But it takes me about 1.5 seconds to get my gun out from concealment, not counting reaction time. It would have been close, and I suspect it may well have been hand-to-and, at least at the start.

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Actions/reactions/OODA loops, fluid situations, and so on- trying to choreograph a gunfight, or even a training exercise, or a stage that the competitor has "gamed" in a match rarely goes 100% as planned. Even less so when the enemy has a vote (he always does, if it is a real enemy and not a paper target) and can heavily influence the outcome.

lemaymiami said:

my best advice to any armed citizen is do whatever is necessary to defend yourself - and it’s entirely possible that weapon you’re carrying may not be your salvation in a close encounter.

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The goal/mission success (victory) criteria in any fight is survival. This should be the sole focus and priority (along with the survival of those who you are responsible for who find themselves "along for the ride"). Everything else afterwards is for lawyers who have actually been to law school and doctors who have actually been to medical school.

lemaymiami said:

Much, much more to say about this but not here…

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So true. I remember as a young student at Ft Bragg in the 80's, an old wise NCO (old to me, at the time) wearing a SF patch on his right shoulder and a CIB on his chest said that anyone talking about how to do serious business who has never done it himself is like a virgin lecturing on sex.

bdickens said:

Lying on the ground does not necessarily constitute "no longer a threat."

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Agree. I have seen some men continue do some unbelievably brave and destructive things lying on the ground after sustaining horrific injuries that they later died from. Fortunately, these men were usually on my side.

Kleanbore said:

What is your point?

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Do you think it would be wise to come back to a guy that hasn’t moved since you finished putting 8 rounds in him, disengaged then come back and put some more in there, “just in case”?

Is he still a threat for those additional rounds?

If that’s ok, could the guy go get in his car and run/back over him a few times, again, just for good measure?

At what point are you giving someone a reason to go after you?