Why is the 1911 not a "beginner's gun"?

Just think about how "complicated" a DA/SA gun is ! With that decocker and all that stuff!

LocoGringo said:

Does the activation/deactivation of a safety make a firearm more for "experts" than a point and click firearm (Glock, etc.)? If you can operate an AR-15, you can operate a 1911. Do you have to be an expert or "non-beginner" for either?

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Not in my honest opinion. And as you said practice makes perfect. Sweeping the safety on and off on my 1911's and AR's have become second nature to me after all theses years of training that I still sweep the safety off on pistol that don't have one. And it doesn't slow me down one bit.

Now swapping/replacing parts on a 1911 is a little different compared to say a Glock. With Glocks, parts are normally 100% dropping ready. With 1911's there is usually some amount of hand fitting needed, this depends on the part too. So maybe that is where the comment of the 1911 being an experts gun is coming from. Who knows for sure. All I know is that the 1911 was used from WW I through Desert Storm and beyond. Countless GI's with no firearm experience have been trained to use the 1911 (and M9).

LocoGringo said:

Does a safety lever require any more practice, really?

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Yes, it does. Many times I've seen novice shooters, under just the mild stress of peer pressure or a timer, either forget to take the safety off or forget to put back on. I've also seen the safety get bumped accidentally both on and off, something which, in a life or death situation, requires rapid, instinctual diagnoses. That kind of thing has to be trained regularly to become second nature.

The 1911 isn't excessively "complicated", nor is a "bad" design for a beginner. After all, the safety isn't difficult to operate, and it has additional safety features like the grip safety and half-cock. The trigger is consistent no matter if it is the first round or the last round being fired in an engagement VS a transitional DA like the M9 pistol, Sig 226, or similar designs. Where the 1911 is less than optimum for a beginner is the 45 ACP cartridge that they normally fire being a little stout in recoil for the inexperienced shooter, and the the mass that these pistols normally "weigh in" at. Choosing a lightweight variant will remedy this, but aggravate challenges with recoil. Inexperienced shooters will often "limp wrist" a handgun, which will increase recoil effects and likely cause a malfunction with the 1911. These issues may be aggravated with a "petite" shooter. It was common practice in the 1911 days in the army to provide k frame 38 revolvers in units like the MP corps to smaller Soldiers who had issues effectively using the 1911.

The US military didn't mention it being limited to anyone in particular did it?
(I never served so I don't know for sure)

& no - not IMHO - a manual safety lever isn't all that complicated either.

Having said that though, I'm a big believer in keeping things simple and keeping all the controls on your guns very similar.

Because the 1911 is completely surrounded by fudds with bad advice and terrible recommendations.

The 87 multi page threads, about nonsense carry "conditions" from 1897, is a perfect example of the mythical junk that follows the 1911 around.

If you're bright enough to navigate that, Its a fine beginners gun. So, are you a committed noob? Or a lazy one? If you're willing to take the time to proof test your 1911, and yourself, you'll be fine. The added safety of the 1911, and maybe a thumb break holster, is priceless to a noob.

1911
+ good trigger, sometimes excellent trigger
+ safest pistol out there
+shoots well
+ .45, major caliber
+cocked and locked, always a nice SA trigger
+amazingly durable and reliable when built right. Only one part seems to ever wear. The recoil spring.
+thinnest fullsize .45 out there

-plenty of good examples, plenty of garbage
-generally weak poor finish that isnt as corrosion resistant as modern pistols. DLC and melonite nitride cost extra.
-potentially slow draw to fire from the retension position
-grip safety is a relic of stupidity.
-grip frame is a bit spindly, like holding a twig.
-magazines have serious design defects. 1st round gap is simply unacceptable, but good mags tend to account for that somewhat. You have to keep an eye on dropped mags.
-maybe finicky on ammo
-best examples are expensive. $2000-6000. I only recommend Colt and DW for less than that price range.
-not easy to build correctly. Even the finest CNC machines struggle to produce a good 1911. Hand fitting, and the room for error that comes with such, is inevitable.
-Ive had bad luck with 9mm versions. Less so with 2011's.
-tend to be heavy

LocoGringo said:

how much more difficult is it to automatically place your thumb on the safety to deactivate it

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I always thought the grip safety helped ensure you had proper/good enough grip on the pistol.

LocoGringo said:

The statement was something like, "we all know the 1911 is not a beginner's handgun". I don't know that.

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Me neither.

I started my introduction to firearm with 10/22 and later M16/M60 (Fun, fun, fun)

in the Army along with 1911 in my unit's armory when I got "volunteered" to work there to ensure new 1911s were burr free and functioned reliably.

So to me, 1911 was my "beginner's handgun" and I guess I didn't know any better.

Watching "Magnum P.I." growing up and seeing Tom Selleck handle 1911 certainly didn't hurt for me to yearn to own 1911 and ended up buying one to modify for USPSA matches after I was discharged from the Army.

The idea originated in the revolver era, and yes, compared to a DA revolver chambered for something like .38 Special, the 1911 is an "expert's" gun.

The revolver has no safety to manipulate.

The revolver has no magazine release.

The revolver has no slide to bite you.

The revolver has no hidden chamber to hold a cartridge (surprise!) when the tyro thought he'd unloaded it by removing the magazine.

The revolver (again in .38, or .32, or similar) does not kick as much.

We all know that the 1911 doesn't actually require any sort of an "expert" to make it run, especially at the range on a pretty day. It just requires a bit more attention and training, especially if it is to be used under less pleasant circumstances.

12Bravo20 said:

Sweeping the safety on and off on my 1911's and AR's have become second nature to me after all theses years of training that I still sweep the safety off on pistol that don't have one.

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12Bravo20 said:

Countless GI's with no firearm experience have been trained to use the 1911 (and M9).

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.38 Special said:

It just requires a bit more attention and training, especially if it is to be used under less pleasant circumstances.

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What do all these posts have in common?

FL-NC said:

The 1911 isn't excessively "complicated", nor is a "bad" design for a beginner. After all, the safety isn't difficult to operate, and it has additional safety features like the grip safety and half-cock. The trigger is consistent no matter if it is the first round or the last round being fired in an engagement VS a transitional DA like the M9 pistol, Sig 226, or similar designs. Where the 1911 is less than optimum for a beginner is the 45 ACP cartridge that they normally fire being a little stout in recoil for the inexperienced shooter, and the the mass that these pistols normally "weigh in" at. Choosing a lightweight variant will remedy this, but aggravate challenges with recoil. Inexperienced shooters will often "limp wrist" a handgun, which will increase recoil effects and likely cause a malfunction with the 1911. These issues may be aggravated with a "petite" shooter. It was common practice in the 1911 days in the army to provide k frame 38 revolvers in units like the MP corps to smaller Soldiers who had issues effectively using the 1911.

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I just got a Government-size 9mm lightweight, and I know it's heresy in some quarters, but it is the most pleasant-shooting gun... It's like shooting hot .38 Special in a 4" mid-size .357 Magnum revolver. My girlfriend is a very inexperienced handgun shooter and it's the easiest semiauto for her to shoot that I have.

LocoGringo said:

A statement in another post made me wonder....

The statement was something like, "we all know the 1911 is not a beginner's handgun". I don't know that. Maybe I'm not part of "we" or "everyone" because I don't understand this statement. What's so complicated about a 1911 that makes it an experienced shooter's handgun, or an "expert's" handgun and beginners should start with something else, maybe "simpler"?

Correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems this can be linked to a general sentiment in society of dumbing things down. Yes, striker fired pistols are super simple in that you draw, aim and pull the trigger. There is little thought necessary to accomplish the task of firing the gun. However, if one is liable for every bullet sent down the barrel as we always claim, wouldn't you want a little more thought involved?

Also, how much more difficult is it to automatically place your thumb on the safety to deactivate it or know the condition of the gun? I work in security for the D.O.E. where safety is EVERYTHING, sometimes even at the cost of common sense. We carry M4s and don't deactivate the safety until we've identified the threat and are up on target or coming up on target. After the engagement, the safety goes back on. If you do it enough, it becomes automatic. The same applies to a 1911.

Does the activation/deactivation of a safety make a firearm more for "experts" than a point and click firearm (Glock, etc.)? If you can operate an AR-15, you can operate a 1911. Do you have to be an expert or "non-beginner" for either?

All handguns REQUIRE practice to operate competently. Does a safety lever require any more practice, really?

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The M1911 is THE beginner's gun! Think how many beginners learned to shoot a pistol in the Army during WWI, WWII, Korea, Viet Nam, etc., etc.

The Army I served in 1967-1971 gave short shrift to marksmanship and small arms training, while the Army of say 1911-1940 gave it a pretty high priority.
I recommend a 22 as a beginner's handgun, for the M1911 I use the Ciener units. Mechanical and safety training-"practice makes perfect." For dry firing snap caps, also a magazine of a different color or carefully marked to prevent an ND.

After re-reading the OP, I'll add that I absolutely believe the 1911 is not a "beginner's" gun.

I think one ought to learn handgunning with a .22, preferably in a DA revolver. The two things that have to be mastered in order to start becoming a competent handgunner are sights and trigger. Anything that complicates learning those two things should be eliminated if at all possible. Things like magazines, safeties, and recoil all fit that category.

That doesn't, of course, mean that a beginner cannot be started with a 1911. It just makes things harder than they need to be.

.38 Special said:

We all know that the 1911 doesn't actually require any sort of an "expert" to make it run, especially at the range on a pretty day. It just requires a bit more attention and training, especially if it is to be used under less pleasant circumstances.

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Thats just it, it doesn't take an expert to make them run, then again, none of the different types do, but they do take some realistic training and experience, especially when it comes to the handling of the gun, in all ways, not just shooting it.

A 1911 in the hand, with the safety off, as it should be when it is in your hand, is even more of an accident waiting to happen for the inexperienced, than a striker fired gun that so many seem to wring their hands about, simply because of its trigger.

There is very little to no leeway at all there when it comes to the 1911's trigger, where the DA and most of the current striker guns, at least have some take up and/or a trigger safety in the trigger, to stop the inadvertent touching from a finger or anything else coming in from the side, or less than full contact with the trigger. You dont have to have full purchase on a 1911's trigger to fire the gun. All my DA and striker-fired triggers do.

What happens with a 1911 or any other SA auto that you forgot to set the thumb safety and try to reholster with your finger in the wrong place, or something else in the way?

What happens when youre expecting the gun to go off and save your life, and you grabbed it too high up on the grip and the grip safety activated and wont let the gun shoot?

The other issue is relying completely on the safeties and expecting them to always work, and to think for you, when you screw up. They dont and they wont.

As far as the government/military go, lowest common denominator is the answer there. Safeties or not, they dont trust people with loaded guns. So thats pretty much a moot point and not a good example.

And "target shooting" at the range, vs more realistic shooting and handling of the gun, especially with a little added stress, as well as regular carry and handling, are two very different things. And there's a big difference between experienced and inexperienced, and it applies to all of them, not just the 1911's.

1911's arent hard to shoot, if that's all you're doing, its all the other stuff here that you have to pay close attention to.

Also the traditional one hand target/dueling stance is not that good for a beginner with anything larger than a 22.

I agree with the sentiment that the 1911 is not a beginner's gun in the sense that people who have never or rarely shot a handgun might have a problem with the recoil and the noise. I was with a young guy a few weeks ago when he shot one for the first time, he said he was a little shocked at how violent both were. And it doesn't matter one whit to me the original intention of the way they were intended to be carried by the various "authorities", I know how I like to carry mine and I feel like it's very safe that way even under strenuous physical conditions and I like the fact that when it comes time to pull the trigger I'm going to have a match grade trigger pull awaiting me.

I realize the striker/no safety design is perfectly safe in the hands of someone who is safe, but having read about the problems with the guns when they first saw wide acceptance and actually seeing a couple of ND's with them back in the day (one of which was about three feet from me), they still make me a little nervous when an obviously inexperienced person is manipulating them nearby. I owned a Glock 42 for years, and liked the gun, but a friend liked it better than I did so offered me a trade I just couldn't pass on...and I will likely buy another one at some point.

Madcap_Magician said:

I just got a Government-size 9mm lightweight, and I know it's heresy in some quarters, but it is the most pleasant-shooting gun... It's like shooting hot .38 Special in a 4" mid-size .357 Magnum revolver. My girlfriend is a very inexperienced handgun shooter and it's the easiest semiauto for her to shoot that I have.

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Very true, I find 1911 pistols in anything other than 45 ACP, or maybe 38 super "unseemly", but that is just an opinion, and I don't have to use them. It doesn't make the other calibers available "bad". If it provides your GF a pistol she can use easily and something that is fun for you, with the experience of shooting a 1911, I say run it.
I have an old Star 9mm that has a profile that is similar to a 1911 commander, but it isn't one. It is a single action single stack 9mm pistol, and it fires. I got about $200 in it. While it isn't my favorite pistol, I can't deny that it does in fact fire, and that I keep it at the ready in the tool chest in my garage in the event of... whatever. Hopefully it remains there collecting dust, with me switching the mag every 6 months and rubbing a little oil on it.

it is the cartrdige. .22LR or some plinker mouse fart .38 Special is a beginner cartrdige, or should be. Too many people think they need to shoot .357 out of the gate and honestly, that is just silly. that being said, I'm sure I could teach just about any adult male who is of at least average strength, to hold and operate a 1911 in about 20 minutes if I had to.

I have 1911's and would say that a Glock would be simpler for me to explain to a beginner.

At one time, my wife carried a Ruger 1911 in 9mm which she shot well; however, my wife might go to the range 3-4 times a year.
One day she goes to practice, draws gun from dedicated "gun purse" points toward target, pulls trigger, nothing happens, realizes safety is on ...
That was the end of my wife carrying a 1911; she can't afford any delay after drawing the gun from purse. (Like somebody who pocket carries and starts with their hands on cart, or seated)
There is no having to remember to disengage a thumb safety with the Glock and simplicity is beneficial, especially for a infrequent shooter.
Wife is content with a Glock 19.

How about DA/SA? Wife had a S&W 6906 in the past, the DA trigger is not conducive to an accurate 1st shot.

How about a revolver? Wife had a 38 snub with pocket hammer, 1st gun I bought her. Heavy DA trigger not conducive to accurate shooting and recoil punishing compared to a semi of comparable power (9mm).

Opinion warning:
IMO a 1911 is for somebody "into" guns that practices frequently; it should be carried condition 1 or don't carry it.
Glock / 365 / Shield / Beretta 92 - fine for somebody who wants to learn, shoots occasionally, and is comfortable/competent with loaded chamber carry.
Revolvers - Anybody not comfortable with carrying loaded chamber in a pistol. Those that seldom shoot. Those not "into" guns.

LocoGringo said:

Does the activation/deactivation of a safety make a firearm more for "experts" than a point and click firearm (Glock, etc.)? If you can operate an AR-15, you can operate a 1911. Do you have to be an expert or "non-beginner" for either?

All handguns REQUIRE practice to operate competently. Does a safety lever require any more practice, really?

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My 0.02 cents.. The statement has nothing to do with anything you tried to argue for or against.

It has to do with maintenance.

If one cannot be bothered to lube a gun or perhaps tune an extractor or sear spring. Or change any spring for that matter. etc.

It just might not be for some people as they do require more routine maintenance than a Glock, HK, etc

Vern Humphrey said:

The M1911 is THE beginner's gun! Think how many beginners learned to shoot a pistol in the Army during WWI, WWII, Korea, Viet Nam, etc., etc.

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Poly handguns have existed for 50yrs now.
Generations of beginners learned on them too.

My first handgun was a 1911, in late 1982 or very early 1983. I was fortunate to have been guided and mentored well. I have yet to have an accident or regrettable incident with a 1911. Had I learned with a different, dissimilar handgun system, I wonder whether I would have learned the 1911 system as well as I did.

Actually, I believe that a 1911 is quite simple to learn, if the student is a blank-slate beginner, and, coached well.

By learning the 1911 first, and the double-action revolver second, I have been able to shoot just about anything, that properly fit my hands.

For me, the only yips I get about the 1911 is the same I have with any major gun-operation switch: folks who carried Glock, M&P type striker guns, DA/SA decocker pistols, revolvers, etc. who now want to rapidly transition to a 1911 for on or off duty use or for ccw.

There are significant differences in the manual of arms for the 1911 guns and it takes dedication and practice to make the 1911 second nature after years of DA/SA-striker pistol or revolver use. It isn’t difficult, just different.

Those who dedicate themselves will have little trouble with the switch, same with people who start off with a 1911.

Those who carried a Glock for ten years, buy a new 1911 (or 2011), go fire a box or two at paper targets with no additional work, and then declare themselves ready for anything? They worry me.

Its just training, not the gun.

Stay safe.

Wham Bham said:

I completely disagree with the notion that 1911 aren't good for beginners

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I would argue that is for some. Not everyone is the same size or recoil tolerant.