Compliance Is Certainly A Gamble

2008, West Palm Beach, Florida (not far from me, and near where I worked in LE many years ago): An armed suspect enters a convenience store and robs the two people inside, a make clerk and a male customer. After the robbery, the suspect executes both compliant men before leaving.

Approximately 30 minutes later, in Delray Beach (about 30 minutes south), the same suspect enters another similar store and announces a robbery. There are two male clerks and no customers present. One of the clerks ducks behind the counter, and the suspect fires at him. The other clerk produces a gun himself and fires a single shot at the suspect, who immediately flees the store. Neither victim complied. Neither victim is injured.

Officers responding to the second incident locate the suspect lying in the street about a hundred yards from the store, suffering from a gunshot wound to the chest. He dies the next day. He is later connected to at least two other robberies that took place in the previous weeks, at least one of which included a shooting (I cannot remember if that one was fatal.)

Kleanbore said:

It happens. What do we do?

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Be armed, move quickly, return fire

"Do such and such and I won't hurt you". Well, if you are dishonest enough to illegally impose your will to commit a crime on me, chances are, you are also a liar. Anything you do- including nothing- can get you killed. Its a dangerous business, no matter how you slice it.

Good Ol' Boy said:

Another one from John with ASP. He makes some great points on paying attention for opportunities presented by your attacker.

Not "overly graphic" but if you're squeamish maybe pass this one up.

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About 5 minutes in was a third chance to shoot the perp. The perp had a gun, has pointed it at the storkeeper. Now at this point you would be shooting the perp in the back, and the prosecuting attorney will have a field day with that. But I guess if your life is threatened, you really have no choice. But even from the video, would the jury think the guy was turning to leave or going to come back at him again? Of course he had two earlier chances to shoot but it may have taken those to get his mind set to what he has to do to get out of this alive. Sadly, he either had no gun or didn't take any of the opportunities.

Compliance is a gamble I'm not making.
I may feign compliance to facilitate drawing and I may get shot / crippled / killed as a result but it will happen on my feet, not my knees.
I am not putting my fate at the sole discretion / "mercy" of a thug.

I can't see the video, says age restricted, guess I'm not old enough.

In general, if they start marching you to the back of a store, good possibility they have execution in mind, and you should take your best shot, so to speak.

There were a rash of store shootings in the 70's in NYC. One of my fellow officers was in a hardware store in lower Manhattan back then when a holdup was announced and they started herding people to the back. Kenny ducked behind a column and opened fire. He missed all three shoots, but the skells took off and the threat ended.

My sense with contemporary criminals is that being submissively put to your knees means the end is very near. These criminals are not like the bank heist professionals in HEAT as played by Robert DeNiro, Val Kilmer, and Tom Sizemore. They are far more sinister and vicious and obviously with no ability to envision the future.

When you comply, you give the thug total power over you. You just HOPE he won't kill you -- and as Gordy Sullivan said, "Hope is not a strategy."

Vern Humphrey said:

When you comply, you give the thug total power over you. You just HOPE he won't kill you -- and as Gordy Sullivan said, "Hope is not a strategy."

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I won't bore everyone with the details, but several years ago a disgruntled ex-husband in my neighborhood took his family and in-laws hostage and he shot them all 7 of them execution style (including his own kids) because everyone complied with his demands.

You can call me a liar and an A-hole (or worse) but I'm not going out on my knees if there is any chance otherwise.

A few years back some turd walked into a racetrack late night hours. Walked around the store for a min. Went to the front and shot the manager on duty. Who was the only employee at the time. Wasn’t a robbery. Just shot the man. And walked away. Fast forward two years later. The same gun was used in New Jersey. The gentleman was shot in Georgia. Some folks kill just kill. No matter what you do you will take a dirt nap. Fight back if you can. Or take a chance.

Meeks36 said:

A few years back some turd walked into a racetrack late night hours. Walked around the store for a min. Went to the front and shot the manager on duty. Who was the only employee at the time. Wasn’t a robbery. Just shot the man. And walked away. Fast forward two years later. The same gun was used in New Jersey. The gentleman was shot in Georgia. Some folks kill just kill. No matter what you do you will take a dirt nap. Fight back if you can. Or take a chance.

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When the authorities keep letting this type back on the street they need to be held responsible and prosecuted for aiding and abetting crime. If the judges own arse is hanging in the balance, he will think twice before letting a multiple-felony perp back on the street.

Della Witt-Denizeri complied and was subsequently tied up, doused in lighter fluid and set on fire. Miraculously she survived. This occurred in Palestine , Texas- population: 17,906 The perp got life.

Damn! I’ve got some rethinking and training to do. OMG!

The overwhelming majority of robberies end without the victim being shot so I wouldn't try to draw against an armed robber unless I had an big edge or I thought I was going to be shot anyway.

shafter said:

The overwhelming majority of robberies end without the victim being shot so I wouldn't try to draw against an armed robber unless I had an big edge or I thought I was going to be shot anyway.

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How do you know if the person will or will not shoot?

Comply, but watch for openings. Assuming you're here on THR because you're preparing for this sort of thing (and that preparation probably includes being armed), you're likely already ahead of this victim.

Your opening, should one arise, may be a chance to draw and fire, a chance to attempt a disarm, or a chance to bolt. I'm not too proud to run like a scared rabbit if that's the chance I get. If that's all I have other than certain execution, I'm taking it. Even if I catch a bullet or two as I go, my chances are still higher than with an arm's-reach shot to the head while on my knees.

Many disarm techniques involve feigning compliance while holding one's hands up, palms facing the aggressor, in a submissive manner, while gently closing distance to within grabbing range. Training in this, both the fake submission and the actual disarm, should be in your mental arsenal. So should flight techniques.

The big challenge is in quickly ascertaining if one is dealing with a "classic" robber or a "psychotic" robber.
One would think crime data has been gathered to establish characteristics that each type usually displays?

Blue Jays said:

The big challenge is in quickly ascertaining if one is dealing with a "classic" robber or a "psychotic" robber.
One would think crime data has been gathered to establish characteristics that each type usually displays?

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If someone is taking action that merits a justifiable lethal force response from me, I think their action is psychotic - I wouldn't call it rational.

CDW4ME said:

If someone is taking action that merits a justifiable lethal force response from me, I think their action is psychotic - I wouldn't call it rational.

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Absolutely! If I'm in doubt as to whether my attacker is rational or psychotic, why should I give HIM the benefit of the doubt?