What happened to 40 caliber?

WrongHanded said:

If anyone is wondering if maybe Fackler was wrong, you might take a look at this:

http://arxiv.org/ftp/physics/papers/0701/0701268.pdf

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Several years ago the Courtneys tried to get the wound ballistics community to buy into their ballistic pressure wave theory. It went nowhere. IIRC, they tried to claim that WWI "shell shock" was the result of ballistic pressure wave, when "shell shock" was the term used to describe PTSD back then.

Doc Williams posted a review on the Courtneys ballistic pressure wave theory. He reviewed all the references they cited to support their claims and found issues with how they were represented. This was years ago. I did a cursory search but can't find his review. But, in short, ballistic pressure wave and handgun bullets is junk science. That's why it went nowhere.

Shawn Dodson said:

Several years ago the Courtneys tried to get the wound ballistics community to buy into their ballistic pressure wave theory. It went nowhere. IIRC, they tried to claim that WWI "shell shock" was the result of ballistic pressure wave, when "shell shock" was the term used to describe PTSD back then.

Doc Williams posted a review on the Courtneys ballistic pressure wave theory. He reviewed all the references they cited to support their claims and found issues with how they were represented. This was years ago. I did a cursory search but can't find his review. But, in short, ballistic pressure wave and handgun bullets is junk science. That's why it went nowhere.

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Yeah, so did anyone actually bother to recreate any of those studies he sighted, and disprove them? I'm guessing no, because if they did there'd been some evidence that it was as you say *junk science". Seem like not much real science is actually coming from the Facklerites, just nay saying and deflection. That's about all I'm hearing from you.

Kleanbore said:

You tossed that one into the punch bowl last year with the same arguments. The credentials of the authors are questionable. The thread went on for three pages. Let us not repeat the blather.

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Did you actually read it? I mean, that particular document right there.

Kleanbore said:

Yeah.

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So what did you think of the assessments of all those criticisms that came out of the Wound Ballistics Review publication?

So after 11 pages have you guys figure out if I'm carrying my XD-40 is that going to get me killed in the streets or not?

Kleanbore said:

Some were undeniably valid, but none were substantive.

Look--we can debate the minutiae util the cows come home, but everything rests on three things:

• All handgun rounds sometimes work, and all occasionally fail.
• What matters most is what is hit, and that is largely a matter of chance.
• Many law enforcement agencies started transitioniig from the.40 to the 9 some years ago, and few if any have retraced their steps.

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Luck (chance) favors the prepared (trained and practiced).

Kleanbore said:

You tossed that one into the punch bowl last year with the same arguments. The credentials of the authors are questionable. The thread went on for three pages. Let us not repeat the blather.

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Yes because God forbid we look into why things happen that you say can't.
Well really you just repeat them before we start that circle of logical fallacies and hyperbole.

Kleanbore said:

Some were undeniably valid, but none were substantive.

Look--we can debate the minutiae util the cows come home, but everything rests on three things:

• All handgun rounds sometimes work, and all occasionally fail.
• What matters most is what is hit, and that is largely a matter of chance.
• Many law enforcement agencies started transitioniig from the.40 to the 9 some years ago, and few if any have retraced their steps.

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^^^^^^^^^^
This is the reality of all the data points and minutiae.

Answering only for myself, I aged-out of shooting .40 S&W through my high-bore-axis, aluminum-alloy-frame SIG P229. I can shoot it with my healthier left hand, but still consider my right hand to be my “primary” hand, with handguns. The 9mm Glock G17 is now my “orthopedic” auto-pistol, and I still shoot moderate amounts of .45 ACP right-handed, through all-steel, full-sized, low-bore-axis 1911 pistols.

mcb said:

So after 11 pages have you guys figure out if I'm carrying my XD-40 is that going to get me killed in the streets or not?

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Oh yeah, some place along the line you are under gunned. I think you have to carry a 9mm because it is better and holds more bullets to miss with. But I'm not sure if that is the argument anymore.

Can we talk about 40sw popularity again!

WisBorn said:

Oh yeah, some place along the line you are under gunned. I think you have to carry a 9mm because it is better and holds more bullets to miss with. But I'm not sure if that is the argument anymore.

Can we talk about 40sw popularity again!

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Data point of one, I like 40S&W. I have an XD-40 in all three sizes, an R1 Limited double stack 1911 in it and I have shot twenty-thousand+ rounds of 40S&W through a S&W 610. For a semi-auto I really do like this cartridge but I came to it through my USPSA experience. I got nothing against 9mm but I don't currently own one and have only ever owned one but traded it away.

WisBorn said:

Oh yeah, some place along the line you are under gunned. I think you have to carry a 9mm because it is better and holds more bullets to miss with. But I'm not sure if that is the argument anymore.

Can we talk about 40sw popularity again!

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I still like the round. Setting aside the service gun size models (Glock 17, maybe 19) coming out, most new models are aimed at concealed carry market and don’t have both the 9MM and .40 models that used to be more common.

I see way less .40’s on shelves. Personally, I only have one .40 (2 if you count my 10MM).

but I’m pretty much flush with 9MM guns and actually just sold a couple 9MM’s, a P320X and a P365X I bought that just can’t tear me away from my Glocks, so looking at another .40 and 10MM down the line, as well as a few more .45’s.

I for one am planning to buy a new .40 this year, a G22 or G23. It will be a Gen 5 MOS model.

Kleanbore said:

Using duty ammunition? How much bigger? How would that affect ammunition effectiveness? By how much?

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Here let's try this
Yes duty ammo
A little to quite a bit bigger, duty ammo is a pretty broad spectrum.
As to effectiveness the best way I've seen it explained is blood loss as a timer and CNS disruption as a switch, larger holes shorten timers and turn some timers into switches.
As to how much again could be a little or quite a bit, but even at the extremes it's less than other variables as simple as the difference in lung capacity between a 5'6" man and one that's 6'5".

Now your turn if the wound channel isn't significantly larger than the projectile at handgun velocity, why is the wound channel diameter (before you head for that rabbit hole) much larger when a hard cast 158gr .358 SWC is fired at 1450 fps than it is at 850 fps?
Why do deer not run as far with the 1450 fps round even though both were complete pass thru?
Why does game sometimes drop DRT from bullets at handgun velocity even without direct CNS damage from the bullet?

I have not heard anyone here say they rather get shot by a 40 S&W then a 9MM?

Shawn Dodson said:

The 12th shot disrupted his spinal cord and he immediately collapsed to the pavement. When he hit the ground paralyzed he started gasping for air as his lungs collapsed.

He was a determined attacker, apparently irrational and completely oblivious to being shot over and over again. Trade places with the cop and put an old school lug wrench or machete in his hand instead of a branch.

What you hit is more important than what you hit with.

Video of incident.

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Wow, that cop gave the guy EVERY chance to stop. Guy must've been on PCP or something.
That guy shooting the video, as soon as the perp bent to pick up the branch: "Ooo, this guy 'bout to get SMOKED." "Man, SHOOT his @$$!"
I wonder if the cop didn't shoot him sooner because he didn't want it to look like he responded to being cheered on.

Shawn Dodson said:

The 12th shot disrupted his spinal cord and he immediately collapsed to the pavement. When he hit the ground paralyzed he started gasping for air as his lungs collapsed.

He was a determined attacker, apparently irrational and completely oblivious to being shot over and over again. Trade places with the cop and put an old school lug wrench or machete in his hand instead of a branch.

What you hit is more important than what you hit with.

Video of incident.

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Let me ask you guys something. You guys who say "9 mm is not significantly different." If you were this cop, wouldn't you have wished for something a bit more stout in that moment? and like the other member said, imagine he had a machete instead of a rotten branch.

I'd have been wishing for a 45 ACP with a 185 gr. Hydra-Shok. One of the petals of the expanding bullet might've clipped his spine sooner. (assuming I couldn't have a 12 ga. w/buck shot)

I would like to think I'd have started trying head shots after the first couple shots into the chest.

I will say that we need tighter physical fitness requirements for cops. That perp would've killed that cop if he just ran on foot and made him give chase. Would've been a chest-grabber for sure. No risk of being shot, either.

Smaug said:

Let me ask you guys something. You guys who say "9 mm is not significantly different." If you were this cop, wouldn't you have wished for something a bit more stout in that moment? and like the other member said, imagine he had a machete instead of a rotten branch.

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Great question! The distance was not much, and if that cop had been less fat, he might have been able to put both hands on his gun and shoot at twice the rate of fire with far more accuracy. And likely do so even with a gun that had substantially more recoil than whatever he was carrying.

I'm not one of those 9mm fanboys, so I'd rather have a 10mm in that situation. But it will be interesting to see what their replies are.

Shawn Dodson said:

The 12th shot disrupted his spinal cord and he immediately collapsed to the pavement. When he hit the ground paralyzed he started gasping for air as his lungs collapsed.

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Do you actually have any references to that or is that simply conjecture from cognitive bias?
I've searched and the only thing I can find is the report that they released when they didn't charge the officer, the autopsy summary just says 10 in the chest and 3 in the arm and doesn't say anything about spine or paralyzed not that it couldn't have been but
that also looks an awfully lot like how several of the animals I've shot pile up after a few seconds when they don't drop from heart/lung shot.

mcb said:

Data point of one, I like 40S&W. I have an XD-40 in all three sizes, an R1 Limited double stack 1911 in it and I have shot twenty-thousand+ rounds of 40S&W through a S&W 610. For a semi-auto I really do like this cartridge but I came to it through my USPSA experience. I got nothing against 9mm but I don't currently own one and have only ever owned one but traded it away.

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I'm with you about the 9mm. I don't own one right now either. I have given 3 of them to family members. If I didn't think they were adequate for defense I would have never done that. I don't like it when people say that they nine is better than everything else because they have improved the bullet. They have used the technology to improve all of the different cartridges.

Kleanbore said:

"Stout"? By what measure?

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Any combination of more velocity, mass or diameter, so that it makes a larger and at least as deep of wound channel