Some unreal AK accuracy.

d2wing said:

I don't see much point in trying to make something do what it isn't designed for.

Click to expand...

What does the AR10, AR15, M1, M1A, 1911, CZ75, glock, S&W revolver, Remington 700, winchester model 70, Sharps rifles, M17, 1903, K98, M96, K31, Finish Mosins, and many other weapons have in common? None of them were designed to be target rifles, but that didn’t stop anyone from accurizing all of those to see what was possible. If you are going to build an AK anyway, why wouldn’t you try to make it accurate?

If you think torso accuracy is good enough then you have never been in a firefight. VC doctrine was to get belt buckle close because at any distance the accuracy advantage of any American weapon was vastly superior.

someguy2800 said:

What does the AR10, AR15, M1, M1A, 1911, CZ75, glock, S&W revolver, Remington 700, winchester model 70, Sharps rifles, M17, 1903, K98, M96, K31, Finish Mosins, and many other weapons have in common? None of them were designed to be target rifles, but that didn’t stop anyone from accurizing all of those to see what was possible. If you are going to build an AK anyway, why wouldn’t you try to make it accurate?

Click to expand...

Guys do all kinds of pointless things. I remember guys putting hood scoops and slicks on stock Gremlins. Same thing. Let me know how that works. For the time and money spent when you can just go out a buy several better weapons. But then you can try anything. It's your time and money.

I have had enough tools not to emotionally involved. If you want a better tool just buy one. Or make hammer into a hatchet if you want. I saw a guy try to make a lawn mower blade into a knife.

trackskippy said:

I think the AK's primary disadvantage is its sights. Nothing really wrong with them, and I actually prefer them over the "peep" type for quick, reactive type shooting,

Click to expand...

I think it really depends on the aperture. Some just put on too tiny of a hole which is great for precise shooting but does indeed suck for quick target acquisition. My FAL has far too small of an aperture for example but since the sight is "correct" for the rifle I don't want to change it.

I actually replaced my AK sight with a very large aperture sight that sits in the original sight location that works well, but it's not really for shooting groups.

d2wing said:

Guys do all kinds of pointless things. I remember guys putting hood scoops and slicks on stock Gremlins. Same thing. Let me know how that works. For the time and money spent when you can just go out a buy several better weapons. But then you can try anything. It's your time and money.

Click to expand...

This whole hobby is a waste of time and money, but I enjoy it so that's fine. There is a fundamental difference between hanging cosmetic items on the outside of something than actually improving performance. Again, if the accuracy of a rifle can be improved, then why wouldn't you? I would like to get an AK of some sort just as a collectable, so if I can choose between a relatively accurate one and a relatively inaccurate one, why wouldn't I chose an accurate one? If someone can repeatable build an AK that can shoot 1.5 moa, and I am not saying this company can, then what is the issue?

5.45x39 AK-74

7.62x39

derek45 said:

5.45x39 AK-74

Click to expand...

It’s interesting to see how much visibly harder the 5.45 is hitting the steel at the longer ranges

yep

I like the 5.45 a lot better

Never shot one, but comparing 7.62x39 to 223, I prefer the 7.62x39 out to about 200 yards. At 300 yards or more it’s ummm… not great. At 500 it feels like your throwing rocks whereas my 223 is still varmint accurate.

someguy2800 said:

This whole hobby is a waste of time and money, but I enjoy it so that's fine. There is a fundamental difference between hanging cosmetic items on the outside of something than actually improving performance. Again, if the accuracy of a rifle can be improved, then why wouldn't you? I would like to get an AK of some sort just as a collectable, so if I can choose between a relatively accurate one and a relatively inaccurate one, why wouldn't I chose an accurate one? If someone can repeatable build an AK that can shoot 1.5 moa, and I am not saying this company can, then what is the issue?

Click to expand...

You should know that I am a cranky opinionated old man and I support your freedom to do whatever you want but I also claim the right to criticize and make fun of people when the mood strikes me. Don't always take me too seriously.

My thoughts:
1. AK rifles weren't designed with high accuracy in mind, and they live up to their design heritage. They CAN be accurate, but not all are even CLOSE to accurate.
2.7.62x39 is a great short range cartridge, but it has limited usability for anything beyond 200 yards.
3. The best steel cased ammo accuracy I've ever seen was the 154 grain ammo from Tula. My cz527 shot a nice almost cloverleaf with that loading. As nice as my hand loads! My old SKS would do it too. Just a good load.

Illinoisburt:

It’s too bad that you had not (first) spent time on AKfiles before you bought the Century-Designed RAS “AKM”. Many of the AKfiles’ regular members are quite seasoned builders.

The substandard quality of steel used by Century in their AKMs has been quite well known for years. Their objective is maximum production costs.

I’m pretty sure that Rob Ski discovered this in one of his tests on Youtube, where he limits barrel temp, checks headspace regularly,
as he Also analyzes and Shows us the accumulated wear on bolt lugs, channels, shoulders at his standard ‘ammo count’ intervals- up to 5,000 rds. total .

AKMs which are — imported— by Century , in stark contrast to their US-made “creations” , have high quality steel components, as you probably read about later.

d2wing said:

...VC doctrine was to get belt buckle close because at any distance the accuracy advantage of any American weapon was vastly superior.

Click to expand...

Particularly our heavy artillery and close air support...

Ignition Override said:

Their objective is maximum production costs.

Click to expand...

Pretty sure that business model only works for government contractors working under "cost plus" contracts.

The AK was designed and fielded as a more or less supercharged SMG.

Reading original Soviet training manuals, they were meant to be fire exclusively in full automatic at all times and accuracy was never a primary consideration. Even today the Russians almost never fire these rifles in semi-automatic mode.

This guy is an amazing shot! He stretches it out with an AK, no gun vice.
https://www.youtube.com/results?sp=mAEB&search_query=akou+4774

trackskippy said:

I think the AK's primary disadvantage is its sights. Nothing really wrong with them, and I actually prefer them over the "peep" type for quick, reactive type shooting, but they arent the "target" type sights the AR's and some others have.

Put a properly mounted red dot on them, and I think youll find they shoot very much like your AR's do with the same sort of set up.

Having listened to all the usual complaints about the AK's accuracy and ergonomics over the years, I always figured that if someone couldn't shoot one well, they likely couldn't shoot most other things well either.

Click to expand...

Hilarious. I am a qualified shooter. I have owned an shot several AKs, but don't take my word for it. I will give you $100 if you come to my range with your AK and with standard commercial ammo and shoot better than my AR that cost $600. I have posted a 100 yard target. It is sub MOA.

d2wing said:

Hilarious. I am a qualified shooter. I have owned an shot several AKs, but don't take my word for it. I will give you $100 if you come to my range with your AK and with standard commercial ammo and shoot better than my AR that cost $600. I have posted a 100 yard target. It is sub MOA.

Click to expand...

LOL. Whats qualified? Everyone likes to think they are.

I shot HP and CMP military matches for about 20 years, and qualified expert more than a few times (usually shot in the upper sharpshooter range though), with basically unmodified M1's and M1A's shot in street clothes for the most part, and Ive shot them a couple of times with an M14 as well. Does that count?

My $350 AR will outshoot my AK's if I shoot it "target style", prone, or off a rest. And my $800 AR with an Aimpoint on it shoots very much like my $350 AK with its Aimpoint on it, when I shoot them a bit more realistically.

The main thing is, they will both shoot more than well enough, for more realistic purposes, if you can shoot. And a red dot just makes things that much easier, with both.

I posted a 200 yard AK target and from a rest, its shooting about 1.5 MOA. And that was with what most consider a "crappy" AK, an old SAR1. So, what? That wont suffice?

Anymore my 200 yard AR targets arent much different using the irons.

But Im comparing similar guns too, not some souped up AR vs a basic AK.

As I keep saying, if you can shoot, the AK's arent all that bad, and will do OK, as long as you can. What I dont understand is, if youre a reasonably good shot, why you cant shoot an AK reasonably well? Thats the real question.

David Hoback said:

Uhh, no. It’s not the sights. Sights don’t matter when the rig is locked down in a Ransom Rest, which is the true way of testing accuracy. I’ve seen hundreds upon hundreds, maybe a thousand, & THOUSANDS of AR’s shooting at the range. This video is the BEST I’ve ever seen an AK do! Yet Ive seen numerous ARs do SUB 1/2MOA… and more than 1 do 1/4MOA. Every single AR I build does 1MOA or better.. MOST are SUB. But if anyone tells me they have a even a SUB 1” AK, let alone 1/2” or 1/4”, I will flat out call them a LIAR! Doesn’t happen! Not even in Vladimir Putin’s DREAMS!

Click to expand...

So, what? You carry a Ransom Rest with your rifle locked into it with you everywhere you go and shoot?

Im talking about realistic shooting, from realistic field positions. Im not talking about trying to shoot bug holes in a piece of paper shot off a rest, or lead sled, whatever, for bragging rights.

And if youre saying every AR you build will shoot sub MOA with issue or basic factory ammo, I will call you a liar. And if you understand the reality of things, you'll know why.

This isnt about what you might do once and think thats what youll always do, its about what you do on demand, with what you have at the time, any time you shoot. Thats all you can expect from any of them, and for the most part, even if you have the best shooting rifle in the world, its not usually the problem when it wont shoot like you think it should. Look in the mirror for that.

That great and all if you get to choose our ammo, or reload. Military issue ammo is usually spec'd at around 2-3 moa, not sure what the major manufacturers are doing, so even if your gun shoots sub moa, if youre stuck with issue ammo, or only buy factory, you're still at the mercy of your ammo.

My one AR will literally shoot little bugholes with my reloads, but if I put USGI, or some general factory, or even my reloaded "blasting" (mil spec loads) ammo in the gun in the next mag, its shooting "inches", and often multiple inches, not bugholes.

If you want to shoot some occasional bugholes, no doubt, get yourself a nice tuned up AR.

If you are shooting a bit more realistically, across the board with more basic guns and some red dots, etc, I dont think youre going to see a whole lot of difference with either.

I guess a lot of it is how you shoot too, and what youre basing things on. Most people I see shooting at the ranges Ive been to, arent shooting from any kind of realistic positions unless shooting from a bench or rest is the reality for you.

If thats how you shoot, and I hand you an AK or an AR, or whatever, and ask you to shoot 10 rounds offhand quickly, or drop into a sitting position on the ground and do the same, is it really going to matter if your gun shoots 1/4 moa, or 3 moa?

Swampman; thats an excellent combination (i forgot how to copy paste a quote).

My comment about Century building AKMs for a retail price(s)—

—was my clumsy way of stating how seasoned AK builders often claim that Century markets guns for a certain “price point”.

citizenconn said:

Is your experience based on factory ammo or handloads? I don't have an AK, but do have several AR's chambered in 7.62x39 and using handloads they are about as accurate as most shooters I know are capable of within 200 yards, maybe 250. A couple are easily 1 moa or less at 100 yards.

I ceased using steel cased ammo for any chambering a few years ago after trying the Wolf steel cased 6.5 Grendel ammo and found it to be all over the place accuracy wise, as opposed to sub moa accuracy out of the same gun with factory loads, even better with handloads. I do stick to 20 round or less mags so they will feed well in an AR. Even at that not all brands are equal and its taken more time finding reliable mags for the 7.62x39 in my ARs than any other chambering.

I think the 7.62x39 gets an unfair rap as an inaccurate round in general because most people are shooting steel cased ammo and don't take the time to work up good handloads for it, plus almost all of it gets shot out of AK variants. The bullet shape is definitely not as aerodynamic as some other loads though and there are not a lot of choices in weight either which doesn't help. Your mileage may vary.

Click to expand...

mgmorden said:

I think it really depends on the aperture. Some just put on too tiny of a hole which is great for precise shooting but does indeed suck for quick target acquisition. My FAL has far too small of an aperture for example but since the sight is "correct" for the rifle I don't want to change it.

I actually replaced my AK sight with a very large aperture sight that sits in the original sight location that works well, but it's not really for shooting groups.

Click to expand...

just drill a bigger hole in the FN site. I did that to my FN M1 garand and M1A

d2wing said:

If you think torso accuracy is good enough then you have never been in a firefight. VC doctrine was to get belt buckle close because at any distance the accuracy advantage of any American weapon was vastly superior.

Guys do all kinds of pointless things. I remember guys putting hood scoops and slicks on stock Gremlins. Same thing. Let me know how that works. For the time and money spent when you can just go out a buy several better weapons. But then you can try anything. It's your time and money.

Click to expand...

VC wanted to get close so artillery fire could not be called on them. torso hits with an AK or SKS can be made near 200 yds