Help me decide... Sig P365 versus Springfield Armory Hellcat

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Balrog

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I handled both extensively at the gun store... The grip on the P365 seems a little narrow. I liked the Hellcat grip better. The Sig trigger was a little better than the Hellcat. Overall, the P365 seems a little smaller, but just a hair smaller.

Whichever I get, I would probably be carrying on a belt holster, either OWB or IWB.

Any thoughts on which I should go with? Price difference was about $50 or so, so not a major factor.
 
Hard for anybody outside of you to pick a gun for you.Why these two?

Small size for easy carry, big enough to handle like a larger gun, adequate caliber, good capacity, and reputation for reliability.
 
I like the P365, and would choose it over the Hellcat because I don't like trigger safeties. I have a couple of range guns with trigger safeties and have had no issues with them, but for CC, I prefer a more simple design with a rudimentary manual of arms. Less to go wrong, especially in a high stress situation. But I've read very good reviews on the Hellcat, so you won't go wrong with either, Balrog.
 
I like the half moon rear sight on the Hellcat, but the P365 just shot more naturally for me. I have larger hands, not huge, but thick and muscular for someone my height, so the shape and narrower grip of the P365 seemed to feel a little better.
You can't go wrong with either, but you should find a range that rents them or a friend who has one and try them out.
 
I cannot warm up to either the P365 or P320 Sigs. I don’t like the movement during trigger press.

Never handled the Hellcat. But I like my XDm’s
 
I don’t really care for either of them, but I prefer the Hellcat to the P365 overall. Hate the tiny grip of the P365 and the lack of a trigger safety. The Hellcat seemed less snappy to me, though others say the opposite. Neither felt nearly as good as my old Walther PPS M1, which shoots very much like a full-size pistol in my hands. You need to try to shoot them both and then decide.

I’ve never been into the M&P lineup at all, but I shot a Shield Plus recently, and I liked everything about it (grip, trigger, shooting characteristics) much better than either the P365 or the Hellcat. Since Walther is in no hurry to design a higher-capacity PPS M3, and since the micro 9mm for which HK has filed patents will probably forever remain vaporware, I’ll likely buy a Shield Plus soon.
 
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The most important considerations when buying a pistol for concealed carrying are reliability, simplicity of operation, how it fits in your hand, and size. For those reasons I prefer a striker fired pistol, with a one piece trigger hinged at the top, and a manual trigger safety. This combination is the LEAST susceptible to contamination and/or foreign object problems and is the simplest to operate.

The Glock style two piece trigger, that is allegedly designed as the trigger safety, is susceptible to contamination and/or foreign objects that could prevent firing when you need to and is not the best trigger safety design IMHO.

Handgrip safeties may prevent you from firing if you don't grip the pistol just right, and they are susceptible to contamination issues.

Hammer fired triggers are susceptible to foreign objects and contamination and can be complicated with single action only, double action only, single and double action, and sometimes also come with a "decocker".

Pistols that will NOT fire without a magazine inserted are a BAD idea! Sounds like a great safety idea, EXCEPT that if you have a failure to feed malfunction, your only option may be to manually chamber a round with NO magazine inserted. FYI, sometimes you can modify your pistol to defeat the magazine "safety".

Pistols that require you to pull the trigger in order to remove the slide for maintenance are a BAD idea. It's just not necessary to design a pistol that way and by needing to pull the trigger when you DON'T intend to fire develops a bad habit.

I found that the Sig P365 series met all of my criteria. It is striker fired, has a one piece trigger that is hinged at the top, and it comes with or without a manual safety which is ambidextrous, and it is small enough for my carry methods. It also has a low bore axis which reduces muzzle flip. You can get it with a shorter 3.1" long barrel or a longer 3.6" barrel. You can get it with a compensated slide. You can get the short handgrip, the tall handgrip, or the ever taller handgrip. You can get the straight trigger or the curved trigger. You can switch the magazine release button to the right side or the left side. Extended magazine release buttons are available if you want to release button to protrude to a more typical amount. You can get it with conventional iron sights that glow in the dark, or you can get a red dot sight, or a laser sight. You can get it with 10, 12, 15, or 17 round magazines. MagGuts makes a magazine spring kit that allows you to load 12 rounds into the 10 round magazine, and allows you to load 14 rounds into the 12 round magazine. You can safely manually chamber a P365. Replacement parts are readily available.
 
I carry a Hellcat, #1 son has the sig 365.
They are very comparable in size withthe Hellcat being ever so slightly larger.
We had a fun little shootaround here at my place one day where we compared the two ccws. One of our participants was shopping for a compact 9mm ccw. After shooting both, he chose to buy the sig 365. He thought it shot a little tighter groups for him. Personally, I like my Hellcat. I like the sights and the safety, and the size.
Both are good pistols. Never a misfire from either one.
 
The Sig is available with a 1911 style manual safety. That made the decision easy for me. I have no issue with no manual safety on a gun carried in a proper holster that covers the trigger. But these guns serve multiple roles (I have 2, one for me, another for my wife). They often carried in my wife's purse, in a vehicle console, in a nightstand or a backpack. I like a manual safety for that.
 
My limited experience is this: My oldest grandson has and carries a hellcat and has done quite a bit of aftermarket mods to it. He continues with it but is always on the look out for something else as he still isn't happy with it. I have a 356XL. His mother and father both have the standard 356. He has shot them all and passed on the Sigs. I think he just enjoys looking and feeling of different guns :D but he does shoot the hellcat very well. I have shot his hellcat and didn't care for it at all with the stock trigger and still don't with his trigger upgrade. I found the grip to be a bit small on my XL but a Houge grip sleeve makes it very likeable and I find the Sig to more comfortable to shoot.

It all comes down to individual choice with about anything. You have to decide what YOU like.
 
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I tried most of the micro-compact 9mm.s and found the P365X to be the best fit for my hand. Not too big and not too small, great ergonomics, a really decent trigger, and nice, easy to see sights. It also came with a manual safety which I really wanted on it coming from carrying and shooting 1911s for so many years.
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Re: P365 series Manual Trigger Safety.

The manual trigger safety is ambidextrous. The safety can actually be installed and removed without any tools. To add the trigger safety to a P365 you can either buy the handgrip module that already has the notches cut into it for the manual safety, or you can cut or file the notches into the handgrip module to accommodate the manual trigger safety lever.

My P365 fits better into my pocket holster without the manual trigger safety lever on the right side, so I cut off the right side manual trigger safety lever. If the need ever arose to shoot with my left hand, I can still use my left hand thumb or my left hand index finger to actuate the manual safety lever on the left side of the pistol.

I disagree that a holster that covers the trigger is adequate safety.

Let's assume for a second that a foreign object got into your holster. While you are trying to holster your pistol the foreign object catches your trigger and the gun discharges!

If you are manually chambering a cartridge through the ejection port, it would be of benefit to have a manual trigger safety engaged. Likewise, it's also a good idea to have a manual trigger safety engaged while you are inserting a magazine or clearing your pistol.

If you removed your pistol from your holster and suddenly a drunk driver crashes through your wall and knocks you over and the pistol goes flying across the room and it comes down and the trigger gets caught on the coat hook on the wall and discharges, that discharge could have been prevented by a manual trigger safety.

Stuff like this never happens, right? I was working on my sister's car in my garage and suddenly it sounded like machine gun fire and the garage door moved towards me and stopped only a couple of inches from the car that was up on jacks! I was underneath that car only a couple of minutes before! WTH? I ran outside and saw that a car had hit my van and pushed my van into the garage door causing the nails of the door framing to rip loose. It was the nails ripping loose that sounded like machine gun fire. But I couldn't see a driver in the car! WTH? A moment later a woman was running and screaming and practically ripped the car door off the hinges! Her two year old daughter was inside sitting on the floor without a scratch. The mother was apparently shopping for Christmas trees in the parking lot a block away, but left her car running in park, AND her daughter ALONE inside the car. Apparently her daughter had actuated the automatic gear lever and the car started moving, hit another car and it turned 90°, went across a busy 4 lane road, through another parking lot, over the berm, up my driveway and then smashed into my van, pushing it through the garage door.

Okay, a one in 10 million freak accident right? About 5 years later I was living in a different house. I came home to find the police outside. WTH? Lo and behold there was a car that had CRASHED through my garage door!!! This time it was a drunk that somehow managed to make a 90° turn from the street and crash through my garage door.

SH*T HAPPENS!

If you can train yourself to use proper trigger finger discipline, you can train yourself to use a manual trigger safety.
 
The Glock style two piece trigger, that is allegedly designed as the trigger safety, is susceptible to contamination and/or foreign objects that could prevent firing when you need to and is not the best trigger safety design IMHO.

Handgrip safeties may prevent you from firing if you don't grip the pistol just right, and they are susceptible to contamination issues.

Pistols that require you to pull the trigger in order to remove the slide for maintenance are a BAD idea. It's just not necessary to design a pistol that way and by needing to pull the trigger when you DON'T intend to fire develops a bad habit.
.

I’m not going to address everything in your original post, but I find three points that, while they may make sense “In Theory” are not particularly realistic based on documented performance over time.

1. Glock triggers…show me a gun that has more “torture tests” on You Tube than a Glock? And in every one I’ve seen, they will fire after almost any abuse. The ones that are actually buried in sand or mud may require getting quickly dunked in a bucket of water, but the all still go bang. Any level of maintenance will ensure this in NOT an issue (with Glock EOM triggers)

2. Handgrip safeties. They’ve been around for a long time…1911 being the standard on this feature that I’m aware of. I have two XD’s that are 100% reliable as are the dozen or so my friends and shooting partners have. Some receive NO maintenance and are still going strong after many thousand rounds. I’m not a 1911 guy, but never heard of the grip safety being an issue unless it’s messed with.

3. Gotta pull the trigger to field strip the gun. Yes, there are people who pull triggers on loaded guns. That happens on ALL guns. It is all either ignorance or negligence. I say ignorance for folks who have zero clue about a gun, and negligence for all others who either have a clue or know enough to understand the Four Rules of Gun Safety. It does NOT matter if you need to pull the trigger to remove the slide or not, you need to ensure the firearm is UNLOADED before you do anything else. If the gun is unloaded, pulling the trigger is just a mechanical step.
 
1. Glock triggers…show me a gun that has more “torture tests” on You Tube than a Glock? And in every one I’ve seen, they will fire after almost any abuse. The ones that are actually buried in sand or mud may require getting quickly dunked in a bucket of water, but the all still go bang. Any level of maintenance will ensure this in NOT an issue (with Glock EOM triggers)

Garrand Thumb did a water splash and freeze test and ALL of the two piece triggers tested prevented the pistols from firing. The top hinged one piece triggers in striker fired pistols all fired even when frozen. A top hinged one piece trigger is simply less susceptible to contamination. I live in MinneSnowta and I've experienced -35°F weather here.

2. Handgrip safeties. They’ve been around for a long time…1911 being the standard on this feature that I’m aware of. I have two XD’s that are 100% reliable as are the dozen or so my friends and shooting partners have. Some receive NO maintenance and are still going strong after many thousand rounds. I’m not a 1911 guy, but never heard of the grip safety being an issue unless it’s messed with.

And I've seen reports online of people that didn't grip the pistol properly and it did not fire when needed. FYI, 1911 style pistols did NOT fire in the water splash and freeze test.

3. Gotta pull the trigger to field strip the gun. Yes, there are people who pull triggers on loaded guns. That happens on ALL guns. It is all either ignorance or negligence. I say ignorance for folks who have zero clue about a gun, and negligence for all others who either have a clue or know enough to understand the Four Rules of Gun Safety. It does NOT matter if you need to pull the trigger to remove the slide or not, you need to ensure the firearm is UNLOADED before you do anything else. If the gun is unloaded, pulling the trigger is just a mechanical step.

The P365 does NOT require the trigger to be pulled to remove the slide and it completely eliminates the possibly of that kind of negligent discharge. It's safer by design.
 
Garrand Thumb did a water splash and freeze test and ALL of the two piece triggers tested prevented the pistols from firing. The top hinged one piece triggers in striker fired pistols all fired even when frozen. A top hinged one piece trigger is simply less susceptible to contamination. I live in MinneSnowta and I've experienced -35°F weather here.



And I've seen reports online of people that didn't grip the pistol properly and it did not fire when needed. FYI, 1911 style pistols did NOT fire in the water splash and freeze test.



The P365 does NOT require the trigger to be pulled to remove the slide and it completely eliminates the possibly of that kind of negligent discharge. It's safer by design.

Glad all these Interwebs reports you read keep you informed.

Guys who freeze their guns in a bucket of water and expect them to go bang before thawed out are idiots.

I don’t know what cops carry in your state, but AK state troopers carried Glocks for years. The military that patrols Greenland by dogsled and camps in the frozen wasteland for weeks at a time carry Glocks.

Freezing rain and sleet on any unprotected firearm can cause malfunction or inoperability. Water seeping into crevasses and freezing…

And again, the whole field strip and pulling the trigger thing…if someone has control of a firearm, they should know how to operate it. They should know the four rules.

You can dislike Glocks, that’s fine. But you can’t have your own facts.
 
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I like the P365, and would choose it over the Hellcat because I don't like trigger safeties. I have a couple of range guns with trigger safeties and have had no issues with them, but for CC, I prefer a more simple design with a rudimentary manual of arms. Less to go wrong, especially in a high stress situation. But I've read very good reviews on the Hellcat, so you won't go wrong with either, Balrog.

Which is why we cannot pick for the OP/

I like both but with the Sig nice trigger I would not stick that in my pocket with a trigger dongle thingy,:)
So I would pick the Hellcat

But I am not buying another gun, if I do then they will come out with a new and improved one!

Heck the whole selling point was what 10 rounds in a pocket gun?, now the have bigger mags and optics ready?? It's no longer a small gun then!
 
Guys who freeze their guns in a bucket of water and expect them to go bang before thawed out are idiots.

It was a splash and freeze test, NOT a dunk test. The striker fired pistol with top hinged one piece trigger fired WITHOUT thawing it.

I don’t know what cops carry in your state, but AK state troopers carried Glocks for years. The military that patrols Greenland by dogsled and camps in the frozen wasteland for weeks at a time carry Glocks.

Fact: The HK USP .45 ACP FAILED TO FIRE!
Fact: The Nighthawk 1911 .45 ACP FAILED TO FIRE!
Fact: The Staccato 2011 FAILED TO FIRE!
Fact: The Berretta M9 FAILED TO FIRE!
Fact: The Browning Hi Power FAILED TO FIRE!
Fact: The Steyr L9-A2 MF FAILED TO FIRE!
Fact: The Smith and Wesson 44 Magnum FAILED TO FIRE!
Fact: The Desert Eagle 50 AE FAILED TO FIRE!
Fact: The Glock Gen 3 FAILED TO FIRE!

Fact: The Sig M18 WITH a manual trigger safety FIRED. The manual trigger safety was disengaged before the trigger was pulled.
Fact: The M&P 2.0 FIRED. I am a bit surprised that this two piece trigger actually fired the pistol.

One test is worth a 1,000 opinions. FACT: Under a worst case condition the Sig fired and the Glock didn't!

And again, the whole field strip and pulling the trigger thing…if someone has control of a firearm, they should know how to operate it. They should know the four rules.

I agree that everyone should know firearms safety rules. But the most important method to reduce errors is GOOD PROCESS! Having to pull a trigger to remove the slide is BAD process! Eliminating the need to pull the trigger, when you are not shooting or dry firing, is an IMPROVEMENT to the PROCESS! Wishful thinking does NOT improve safety! Eliminating bad process improves safety and reliability!
 
2. Handgrip safeties. They’ve been around for a long time…1911 being the standard on this feature that I’m aware of. I have two XD’s that are 100% reliable as are the dozen or so my friends and shooting partners have. Some receive NO maintenance and are still going strong after many thousand rounds. I’m not a 1911 guy, but never heard of the grip safety being an issue unless it’s messed with.

I have never had a problem with 1911 grip safeties and have never know anyone that did. My wife had problems with the goofy upside down grip safety on her EZ and I did once. The trick is being sure you grip is high enough, something you might forget in a stressful situation. I solved the problem for her with a Hogue beavertail grip sleeve for a Glock of which I have forgotten the model. It took a little trimming with an exacto knife to get it to fit but it renders the safety inoperative and solves the grip problem. The gun has a side safety so two safeties are redundant. I understand some competitive shooters grind away some metal on the 1911 grip safety to make it inoperative also. Another plus on the grip sleeve was it makes the little gun even softer recoiling and easier on her arthritic hands.
 
The whole dunk test thing is unrealistic. How does this relate to real life, it doesn't. Like someone said if you don't like Glock then don't buy one. Just like I won't be buying any Sig's and the Hellcat.
 
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