I have been seeing some good prices on the Shield Plus online lately.
Help me decide... Sig P365 versus Springfield Armory Hellcat
- Thread starter Balrog
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I have been seeing some good prices on the Shield Plus online lately.
Two compacts often compared. I handed them both before deciding on the Sig. The reasons were that it pointed more naturally, had the option of a manual safety (which is something I am used to having), nicer trigger and fit my hand well.
None of that necessarily applies to you. The oldest and best advice is to handle and if possible shoot them both as they are readily available.
None of that necessarily applies to you. The oldest and best advice is to handle and if possible shoot them both as they are readily available.
Still not even close to the temperature of dry ice - which is around -100 F. Like he said, it's an extreme test. One thing he failed to mention, but touched on with the camelback is that your own body heat can potentially keep your pistol at least slightly warm. As long as it's not carried off-body, which isn't a good idea anyway, having it close to your own heat source could negate cold weather issues.
I was more impressed by the Trijicon and Holosun continuing to work than anything else.
Yeah Mr. Thumbs guess of -79 was for Celsius.
-109.3F is going to be quite dangerous to your life.
SwampWolf
Member
I handled both of them and much preferred the 365 XL version. Also, I liked the trigger pull on the SIG best and I insist on having a manual safety on any striker-fired pistol (which is an option on either of these two fine pistols).
Alllen Bundy
Member
Ice only needs to go subzero before it becomes quite tough. Big difference between scraping the ice off of your car windows at 30°F vs 0°F.
Off body carry is the only way that I can practically carry on my bicycle in the warmer months. Colder weather also presents difficulties carrying in general if you want to access your pistol quickly while wearing warm clothing.
It may have been an extreme test, but it did show that the striker fired pistol with a top hinged one piece trigger to be less susceptible to contamination issues.
While some of you are saying "it could never happen to me", life is stranger than fiction. Like the two year old girl smashing her mom's car into my van and pushing it through my garage door. And 5 years later a drunk driving through my garage door!
When I was performing UL compliance safety testing we never tested the product as it would typically be used. We tested the product under the worst conditions possible. Life is un predictable and truth is stranger than fiction.
Exact same response from our house. My wife was carrying a Micro 9 until she shot the 365XL I bought just to see what the fuss was all about. The 1911 style safety is perfect. I did put a Wilson grip module on mine.
sparkyv
Member
Bottom Gun
Member
The Wilson Combat grip module is an excellent modification, especially if you consider the standard 365 grip to be a bit on the small side.
Are you talking bumping to an XL size or is there a thickness difference in the regular one?
Bottom Gun
Member
It feels slightly larger in circumference. It is contoured and has a palm swell so it feels like a fuller grip. The checkering/texturing is more pronounced than factory grip.
They make a number of variations. Here is the XL w/o safety. This link shows a comparison photo with the factory grip.
https://shopwilsoncombat.com/GRIP-MODULE-WCP365-XL-NO-MANUAL-SAFETY-BLACK/productinfo/365XL-SB/
They aren't easy to locate on the Wilson website so you need to do a search for "365 grip" and they will all come up.
Good luck.
They make a number of variations. Here is the XL w/o safety. This link shows a comparison photo with the factory grip.
https://shopwilsoncombat.com/GRIP-MODULE-WCP365-XL-NO-MANUAL-SAFETY-BLACK/productinfo/365XL-SB/
They aren't easy to locate on the Wilson website so you need to do a search for "365 grip" and they will all come up.
Good luck.
The Fudds...will still buy them.
As a P365 owner that video was painful to watch. Painful, yet hilarious and surprisingly truthful... At least I haven't bought into the "let's turn the P365 into a Glock 19 and it'll be revolutionarily" trap.
sparkyv
Member
Lennyjoe
Member
I have both and carry the Hellcat more than the 365. Both are fine subcompact personal defense weapons but the ergonomics and sights are better for me in the Hellcat. P365 is a better pocket carry than the Hellcat.
halfmoonclip
Member
- Joined
- Feb 4, 2011
- Messages
- 2,749
This thread has wandered, but for the OP, can't say enough good things about the 365. A number have passed thru' my hands, and my friends, and all have worked relentlessly through a bunch of shooting. They come with decent sights, and a variety of gripframes/slides that can be mixed and matched to meet your needs. The fire control group, which is removable from the gripframe, is the serial numbered item of record.
You can carry a flush 10 rounder in the gun, and a spare 12 too.
Moon
You can carry a flush 10 rounder in the gun, and a spare 12 too.
Moon
Alllen Bundy
Member
The P365 isn't all sunshine and rainbows as received. At least mine wasn't.
The most serous issue was that the stripper rail was so rough that it put deep scratches into the shell cases and it made it very difficult to retract the slide over a magazine loaded to capacity. Several other people reported the same issue. I'm not sure if this was a small batch of P365s that weren't finished properly or if they are all like this.
Most people will not even realize this problem even exists, as they will chamber a round and then insert the magazine to carry +1, and they have no need to retract the slide. UNTIL they need to pull the trigger in a self defense situation, the gun goes "click" but no boom because the cartridge is a dud, and suddenly they quickly need to retract the slide over the magazine that is loaded to capacity. To compound matters, their hands may be sweaty or otherwise slippery and they may find it difficult to impossible to retract the slide! This will be especially true for a man with arthritic hands or woman with weaker hands.
Eventually the brass shell cases will polish the stainless steel stripper rail. But how many thousands of rounds will that take? The fix is simple. Remove the striker assembly and the striker safety because they are in the way. Mask off the hole for the extractor pivot pin to avoid contamination. Then hand wet sand the stripper rail until smooth. It took less than 10 minutes the first time I did this. Then I cleaned up the slide and especially inside the striker channel, as this is supposed to remain bone dry without lubrication. Reinstall the striker safety and striker assembly and the job is done. If you are competent enough to remove and replace the striker assembly you can easily perform this polishing yourself.
The result is that it now it only requires slightly more force to retract the slide over a magazine loaded to capacity than it does to retract the slide over an empty magazine.
The second issue is that fresh out of the box the P365 can have return to battery malfunctions due to excess friction caused by parts not finished as smoothly as they should have been, and secondly, during the break-in of the recoil spring assembly it can crud up a bit inside causing excess friction. I noted that the left adjacent wall to the breechface was rough enough that it ground brass off of the shell cases, the extractor claw was sharp enough that it shaved brass particles off the the shell cases, and the underside of the extractor claw was rough. The breechface itself could use a finer finish.
I hand wet sanded the breechface, the left adjacent wall to the breechface, the underside of the extractor claw, and I used a fine diamond whetstone to dull the edge of the extractor claw just enough so that it would NOT shave brass from the shellcases. This does require considerably more mechanical aptitude than the average person has.
The RSA should be solvent cleaned after a break-in of 200 or so rounds fired, allowed to dry, and then relubricated. This anyone can and should do.
Also, you need to keep the breechface clean! Gunpowder residue on the breechface increases the friction against the rear of the shellcase sliding across the breechface to achieve the correct angle to enter the firing chamber, and this friction makes it more difficult for the slide to return to battery.
After I performed this polishing work, there is NO way that you can ease the slide closed slowly enough that it will NOT return to battery. I still release the slide quickly and let the slide slam closed into battery. But it's nice knowing that I have an extra margin of reliability.
Polishing the beveled leading edged of the extractor will also make it easier to manually chamber a cartridge.
As received the trigger will feel gritty. You can remove most of this grittiness by dry firing. But you can also go the extra mile and polish the trigger linkage contact points and make the trigger even smoother. This will NOT change the action of the trigger or change the required trigger pull force. But it will make it so smooth that you can feel the point when the trigger spring stops rotating and starts bending, when the sear spring begins to engage, when the FCU slides backward about 0.010", and finally you can feel the break. Many people do not think that the P365 break is sharp enough, but this is a $500 self defense pistol, not a competition race gun. FYI, most people don't notice the FCU sliding backward until you point it out to them. You can do some shimming to eliminate the FCU movement if it bothers you.
By now some people will be crying out that the sky is falling and that I'm causing the end of the world with these "modifications". But in reality, eventually these parts will become worn smoother from use on their own. But I don't want to have to fire 10,000+ rounds for this to happen. I just sped up the break-in process so that my pistol is working perfectly today.
When the magazine is near empty, the P365 feels floppy in your hand because it will be top heavy. I made a 1.75 oz tungsten weight and glued it inside the handgrip and that eliminated the floppiness. I think that is also reduced the muzzle flip slightly. I'm not the only one that is concerned with this balance issue as Wilson Combat makes a replacement handgrip module that allows you to insert a 1.5 oz tungsten weight. I'm sure that this is a typical issue with polymer frame pistols. Some people will complain that the extra 1.75 oz of weight is intolerable. I think that it's more important for the feel of the pistol to be more consistent from loaded to empty. It also makes it easier to insert a magazine, as you physically cannot insert the magazine at the wrong angle.
I also prefer the taller XL handgrip module, so I bought one and installed it. I added a 2.0 oz tungsten weight inside the handgrip.
If you are using the taller XL style grip module with the beavertail, I recommend that you use some fine sandpaper and slightly radius the corners of the beavertail so that the web between your thumb and forefinger doesn't get hung up on the beavertail during a draw.
I didn't like the way that the sharp corners at the bottom of the grip module and magazine floorplate felt in my hand, so I sanded a gentle radius into them. This may or may not be of benefit to you depending upon the size of your hands. I also sanded out the mold seam on the trigger guard. This may seem trivial, but I'd rather eliminate the possibility of noticing a distracting irritation while shooting.
The stock magazine release button is nearly flush by design, and I cannot operate it without rotating the pistol in my hand. But by extending the magazine release button to the normal amount of protrusion, I no longer need to rotate the pistol in my hand while swapping magazines. This is a personal preference issue and an extended magazine button may or may not be of use to you depending upon the size of your hands.
For me and my XL sized hands, the trigger is not far enough forward. I would like the trigger to be moved 7/8" further forward. But this will be an issue I have with most pistols as they are made "one size fits all".
Would I buy a P365 again with all of it's known issues? In a heartbeat. When my budget can afford it, I will be buying a P365XL and my P365 will be relegated for pocket carry.
The most serous issue was that the stripper rail was so rough that it put deep scratches into the shell cases and it made it very difficult to retract the slide over a magazine loaded to capacity. Several other people reported the same issue. I'm not sure if this was a small batch of P365s that weren't finished properly or if they are all like this.
Most people will not even realize this problem even exists, as they will chamber a round and then insert the magazine to carry +1, and they have no need to retract the slide. UNTIL they need to pull the trigger in a self defense situation, the gun goes "click" but no boom because the cartridge is a dud, and suddenly they quickly need to retract the slide over the magazine that is loaded to capacity. To compound matters, their hands may be sweaty or otherwise slippery and they may find it difficult to impossible to retract the slide! This will be especially true for a man with arthritic hands or woman with weaker hands.
Eventually the brass shell cases will polish the stainless steel stripper rail. But how many thousands of rounds will that take? The fix is simple. Remove the striker assembly and the striker safety because they are in the way. Mask off the hole for the extractor pivot pin to avoid contamination. Then hand wet sand the stripper rail until smooth. It took less than 10 minutes the first time I did this. Then I cleaned up the slide and especially inside the striker channel, as this is supposed to remain bone dry without lubrication. Reinstall the striker safety and striker assembly and the job is done. If you are competent enough to remove and replace the striker assembly you can easily perform this polishing yourself.
The result is that it now it only requires slightly more force to retract the slide over a magazine loaded to capacity than it does to retract the slide over an empty magazine.
The second issue is that fresh out of the box the P365 can have return to battery malfunctions due to excess friction caused by parts not finished as smoothly as they should have been, and secondly, during the break-in of the recoil spring assembly it can crud up a bit inside causing excess friction. I noted that the left adjacent wall to the breechface was rough enough that it ground brass off of the shell cases, the extractor claw was sharp enough that it shaved brass particles off the the shell cases, and the underside of the extractor claw was rough. The breechface itself could use a finer finish.
I hand wet sanded the breechface, the left adjacent wall to the breechface, the underside of the extractor claw, and I used a fine diamond whetstone to dull the edge of the extractor claw just enough so that it would NOT shave brass from the shellcases. This does require considerably more mechanical aptitude than the average person has.
The RSA should be solvent cleaned after a break-in of 200 or so rounds fired, allowed to dry, and then relubricated. This anyone can and should do.
Also, you need to keep the breechface clean! Gunpowder residue on the breechface increases the friction against the rear of the shellcase sliding across the breechface to achieve the correct angle to enter the firing chamber, and this friction makes it more difficult for the slide to return to battery.
After I performed this polishing work, there is NO way that you can ease the slide closed slowly enough that it will NOT return to battery. I still release the slide quickly and let the slide slam closed into battery. But it's nice knowing that I have an extra margin of reliability.
Polishing the beveled leading edged of the extractor will also make it easier to manually chamber a cartridge.
As received the trigger will feel gritty. You can remove most of this grittiness by dry firing. But you can also go the extra mile and polish the trigger linkage contact points and make the trigger even smoother. This will NOT change the action of the trigger or change the required trigger pull force. But it will make it so smooth that you can feel the point when the trigger spring stops rotating and starts bending, when the sear spring begins to engage, when the FCU slides backward about 0.010", and finally you can feel the break. Many people do not think that the P365 break is sharp enough, but this is a $500 self defense pistol, not a competition race gun. FYI, most people don't notice the FCU sliding backward until you point it out to them. You can do some shimming to eliminate the FCU movement if it bothers you.
By now some people will be crying out that the sky is falling and that I'm causing the end of the world with these "modifications". But in reality, eventually these parts will become worn smoother from use on their own. But I don't want to have to fire 10,000+ rounds for this to happen. I just sped up the break-in process so that my pistol is working perfectly today.
When the magazine is near empty, the P365 feels floppy in your hand because it will be top heavy. I made a 1.75 oz tungsten weight and glued it inside the handgrip and that eliminated the floppiness. I think that is also reduced the muzzle flip slightly. I'm not the only one that is concerned with this balance issue as Wilson Combat makes a replacement handgrip module that allows you to insert a 1.5 oz tungsten weight. I'm sure that this is a typical issue with polymer frame pistols. Some people will complain that the extra 1.75 oz of weight is intolerable. I think that it's more important for the feel of the pistol to be more consistent from loaded to empty. It also makes it easier to insert a magazine, as you physically cannot insert the magazine at the wrong angle.
I also prefer the taller XL handgrip module, so I bought one and installed it. I added a 2.0 oz tungsten weight inside the handgrip.
If you are using the taller XL style grip module with the beavertail, I recommend that you use some fine sandpaper and slightly radius the corners of the beavertail so that the web between your thumb and forefinger doesn't get hung up on the beavertail during a draw.
I didn't like the way that the sharp corners at the bottom of the grip module and magazine floorplate felt in my hand, so I sanded a gentle radius into them. This may or may not be of benefit to you depending upon the size of your hands. I also sanded out the mold seam on the trigger guard. This may seem trivial, but I'd rather eliminate the possibility of noticing a distracting irritation while shooting.
The stock magazine release button is nearly flush by design, and I cannot operate it without rotating the pistol in my hand. But by extending the magazine release button to the normal amount of protrusion, I no longer need to rotate the pistol in my hand while swapping magazines. This is a personal preference issue and an extended magazine button may or may not be of use to you depending upon the size of your hands.
For me and my XL sized hands, the trigger is not far enough forward. I would like the trigger to be moved 7/8" further forward. But this will be an issue I have with most pistols as they are made "one size fits all".
Would I buy a P365 again with all of it's known issues? In a heartbeat. When my budget can afford it, I will be buying a P365XL and my P365 will be relegated for pocket carry.
Lennyjoe
Member
Wow, Alllen Bundy, you definitely had a rough time with yours. Mine was fine out of the box and still runs flawlessly. Only thing with mine is with one in the chamber and a full 10 round magazine, one of the rounds in the magazine rattles a bit when walking or running. Not a big deal but just a nuisance.
Alllen Bundy
Member
Let me be clear that I have not had a single problem while firing, even before I performed the finishing work.
Insert an empty magazine and note how much force is required to retract the slide. Return the slide into battery. Then insert a magazine loaded to capacity and note how much more force is required to retract the slide and whether or not you can feel any grittiness. You might be surprised. After the polishing of the stripper rail, my P365 feels smooth as silk when I retract the slide over a magazine loaded to capacity and it only requires a little bit more force to retract the slide. Retracting a slide over a magazine loaded to capacity is not something that people do routinely and many people have no idea whether or not this problem exists in their pistol. This is a possibility with most brands of semiautomatic pistols if the stripper rail isn't sufficiently polished.
I did NOT have any problems with the slide not returning to battery while shooting. However, if I pulled the slide slightly out of battery it would NOT return closed by itself. Also, if I eased the slide closed it would NOT return to battery by itself. But after polishing the parts that I listed and cleaning the RSA, you can NOT prevent the slide from returning to battery. How many people have actually bothered to solvent clean their RSAs? I cleaned mine at about 300 rounds and I could not believe how much crud came out. After relubing I also noted that the slide retracted more smoothly.
Will the slide of your P365 from go back into battery by itself if you ease the slide closed, or pull the slide slightly out of battery? The typical comment that I have gotten from people is that you are supposed to let the slide slam closed into battery. But that is just an excuse for poor workmanship and low quality standards. But then again, the P365 is only a $500 gun. It is essentially a Volkswagen with a lot of bang fo the buck and NOT a finely tuned Porsche.
Note that I performed all of this finishing work after I shot only 49 rounds through my P365. I didn't need to fire 500+ rounds to make it perform well, the break-in was already finished before the 50th round was fired, save perhaps barrel break-in. Many people are satisfied with the P365 as received. I prefer to make mine work as well as it possibly can.
I didn't realize that there was an issue that the web between your thumb and forefinger could catch on the beavertail during a draw until someone in a Sig group mentioned that he cut the beavertail off of his P365XL for that reason. I then paid attention to my draw and noted that the web between my thumb and forefinger could indeed catch on the beavertail just like the guy had mentioned. But I did not want to actually remove the beavertail, and I found that I only needed to radius the corners and sharp angles of the beavertail and the web between my thumb and forefinger now glides over the beavertail if my draw is imperfect. SIg should have paid more attention to the beavertail when they designed the P365! I only needed to sand off a tiny amount of plastic to eliminate the problem.
The rest of the actual modifications that I did would best be described as minor tailoring to fit me perfectly and it is mostly personal preference. My P365 with the XL handgrip module now fits my hand like a glove.
Smaug
Member
I had the same choice and I went with the P365. I liked that it has a bit smoother profile; not so many big aggressive grooves, and as you say, a bit better trigger.
It comes with one each flush fitting and pinky shelf 10 round mags. I bought a 12 rounder to "round" things out, but it wasn't really needed. That one lets the pinky fit comfortably on.
I like how slim the pistol is, and it is amazingly accurate for how short the sight radius is. The tritium front sight is very easy to pick up; makes me miss it on other guns.
Lastly, I like that it's not equipped to the gills with unnecessary safeties. No trigger safety and no grip safety. Just the internal ones to make it drop-safe.
The first gun I looked at was the competing Glock, but as usual, its factory trigger was awfully spongy.
It comes with one each flush fitting and pinky shelf 10 round mags. I bought a 12 rounder to "round" things out, but it wasn't really needed. That one lets the pinky fit comfortably on.
I like how slim the pistol is, and it is amazingly accurate for how short the sight radius is. The tritium front sight is very easy to pick up; makes me miss it on other guns.
Lastly, I like that it's not equipped to the gills with unnecessary safeties. No trigger safety and no grip safety. Just the internal ones to make it drop-safe.
The first gun I looked at was the competing Glock, but as usual, its factory trigger was awfully spongy.
LOLBELL
Member
The 365 has served my needs for a couple of years now. It lives in my sweaty pocket constantly. It has never let me down. It gets the lint blown out when the thought comes to mind. It gets wiped down with an oily rag on occasion. Yes it shows some wear and what some would call abuse but it has never failed to fire or feed in a couple of thousand rounds.
I have handled the Hellcat but do not own one. The Sig fits me. I do have a Max 9 that I am learning to like but that wasn’t part of the question asked.
I have handled the Hellcat but do not own one. The Sig fits me. I do have a Max 9 that I am learning to like but that wasn’t part of the question asked.
chaim
Member
A couple years ago I checked out a P365 and Hellcat back to back just after the Hellcat came out. I do remember that I liked the Hellcat's sights better. However, overall, I liked the SIG better, mainly because I have experience with SIGs and fully trust them (not that there is anything wrong with Springfield Armory, but I've never had one).
When I finally bought one of these, I was between the SIG P365 and the S&W Shield Plus. In addition to several SIGs, I also own a S&W M&P 40c and trust both completely. I found things about each that I liked better than the others, but went with the SIG.
Between the Hellcat and SIG, I did like the Hellcat's sights better, if I remember right, they both felt similarly good in my hand, but overall I felt better with the SIG. Between the SIG and the Shield Plus (not on your radar), I liked the Shield's trigger better, but the SIG's size seemed more concealable, and along with the modular capability if I do want to go bigger, I decided to go with the SIG. That said, I also handled a Glock 43X, I've never bought a Glock and every time I've shopped them, I've liked the non-Glock options I've compared them to better (with the bonus that I usually saved money over the Glock). At least at the store, I really did like everything about the Glock better, with the exception of the sights (which can be easily switched out). Even though I wanted a smaller gun, the larger grip felt great in my hands, and these are not quite pocket guns anyway. The only reason I went with the SIG instead was the only 43X the store had was an MOS model, so it was about $50 more than the SIG and the SIG came with night sights while the 43X didn't which would have added even more money.
Anyway, all that to say, when faced with a similar decision as yours, I went with the SIG.
When I finally bought one of these, I was between the SIG P365 and the S&W Shield Plus. In addition to several SIGs, I also own a S&W M&P 40c and trust both completely. I found things about each that I liked better than the others, but went with the SIG.
Between the Hellcat and SIG, I did like the Hellcat's sights better, if I remember right, they both felt similarly good in my hand, but overall I felt better with the SIG. Between the SIG and the Shield Plus (not on your radar), I liked the Shield's trigger better, but the SIG's size seemed more concealable, and along with the modular capability if I do want to go bigger, I decided to go with the SIG. That said, I also handled a Glock 43X, I've never bought a Glock and every time I've shopped them, I've liked the non-Glock options I've compared them to better (with the bonus that I usually saved money over the Glock). At least at the store, I really did like everything about the Glock better, with the exception of the sights (which can be easily switched out). Even though I wanted a smaller gun, the larger grip felt great in my hands, and these are not quite pocket guns anyway. The only reason I went with the SIG instead was the only 43X the store had was an MOS model, so it was about $50 more than the SIG and the SIG came with night sights while the 43X didn't which would have added even more money.
Anyway, all that to say, when faced with a similar decision as yours, I went with the SIG.
Stefan A
Member
I prefer the 365 much more. I own(ed) both and did a lot of comparison. It was no contest for me. I get a better grip on the 365, the serrations are more aggressive on the 365, the 365 is not as "snappy", wasn't a fan of the U notch. The hellcat was a nice gun and if I never had a 365, I would have just kept it. But I sold it and got a 365x - so now I have a 365 and a 365x
Skylerbone
Member
If you’re looking for opinions they abound. If you want to buy the right one, rent them all. That’s ALL, not just the ones everyone else is running to buy. What matters are reliability and how YOU shoot it.
Screw ergonomics, you’ll learn to operate it if you’re serious and you’ll practice with it if you really want to be proficient. You’ll find a way to carry it if you’re serious about that. Reliability is nearing foregone conclusion with modern firearms coming from major manufacturers so don’t fight what works best for you in favor of newest/smallest/coolest.
Screw ergonomics, you’ll learn to operate it if you’re serious and you’ll practice with it if you really want to be proficient. You’ll find a way to carry it if you’re serious about that. Reliability is nearing foregone conclusion with modern firearms coming from major manufacturers so don’t fight what works best for you in favor of newest/smallest/coolest.
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