So where are we on CCW as you cross state lines on vacation, after the SCOTUS decision

Status
Not open for further replies.
I am pretty sure that when they run your DL it will tell them you have a CC license or FOID. Probably even comes up just running your plates.

I know all of that information comes up if our names, DL number or license plate number is ran through MULES when here in Missouri. And I am sure it comes up for out of state law enforcement now that systems are all connected.

The problem was when we first got Conceal Carry here in Missouri. The program was ran by the MOHP and all info was stored in the MULES system. At that time we had a choice of having our CCW permit on our DL or on a separate state ID. Those that had their CCW on their DL had issues when traveling into Illinois. If you got stopped for any reason and the Ill. State Police saw the CCW on your DL, they would definitely start searching your vehicle for weapons. I made that mistake for the first 3 years of having my CCW. After getting stopped and searched a few times in Ill. I removed my CCW from my DL and had it on a State ID only. By doing that, it save me headaches when traveling in Illinois.

I know some are not believing me but that is what happened in the past. Yes it was wrong but the Ill State Police did harass Missouri residents for some time.
 
This is the crux of the OP and this thread:

I think the argument is that since NYSRPA vs Bruen holds that people have the right to carry arms in public, denying that right to people who are not residents is still denying the right. That wouldn't be the case if Maryland recognized other states licenses, adopted permitless carry, or provided for non-resident licenses.

I stay out of such states as much as I can while their laws catch up to Bruen.

One fine point of this discussion has to do with tribal lands. New Mexico, for example, leaves decisions regarding concealed carry and carry permit recognition to tribal authorities. I wonder if McDonald v Chicago and NYRPA v Bruen also apply to these entities.
 
Last edited:
That reflects a very fundamental misunderstanding of the law. Application and permissible regulation of constitutionally protected rights will vary from State to State.

  1. The Bill of Rights does not apply to States. The Supreme Court ruled in 1833 that the States were not subject to the Bill of Rights (Barron v. Baltimore, 32 U.S. (7 Pet.) 243 (1833)).

  2. Some years following the adoption of the Fourteenth Amendment the doctrine evolved of applying some, but not all, of the rights enumerated in the Bill of Rights to the States on a piecemeal basis, using the Due Process Clause of the Fourteenth Amendment.

  3. The 14th Amendment wasn't used to apply rights enumerated in the Bill of Rights to the States until, at the earliest, 1897 (Chicago, Burlington & Quincy Railroad Co. v. City of Chicago, 166 U.S. 226 (1897) incorporating the "taking" clause of the 5th Amendment through the due process clause of the 14th Amendment). And the right of free speech protected by the First Amendment wasn't applied to the States until 1925 (Gitlow v. New York, 268 U.S. 652 (1925)).

  4. A number of rights enumerated in the Bill of Rights have not been incorporated against the States or have been ruled not to apply against the States:
    • Third Amendment: The right not to be compelled to quarter soldiers has been specifically incorporated only in the Second Circuit. It appears that the has been no other ruling on that question.

    • Fifth Amendment: The right to indictment by a grand jury has been specifically not incorporated (Hurtado v. California, 110 U.S. 516 (1884)).

    • Sixth Amendment: The right in a criminal trial to a jury selected from residents of the state and district where the crime occurred has not been incorporated (Caudill v. Scott, 857 F.2d 344 (6th Cir. 1988); Cook v. Morrill, 783 F.2d 593 (5th Cir. 1986); Zicarelli v. Dietz, 633 F.2d 312 (3d Cir. 1980)).

    • Seventh Amendment: The right to a jury trial in a civil case has been held not incorporated against the States (Minneapolis & St. Louis R. Co. v. Bombolis, 241 U.S. 211 (1916)).

    • Eighth Amendment: The question of the incorporation of the right to protection against excessive fines has not been addressed.

  5. And the Supreme Court has also ruled that constitutionally protected rights may be subject, under some circumstances, to State or local regulation. See, for example:
    • Hill v Colorado, 530 U.S. 703, 120 S.Ct. 2480, 147 L.Ed.2d 597 (2000), in which the Court, in upholding a Colorado law restricting protesting, educational or counseling activities within 100 feet of the entrance to a health facility, noted:
      • Cf. McCullen v. Coakley (U. S. Supreme Court, No. 12–1168, 2014)

      • In McCullen the Court struck down a new Massachusetts "buffer zone" law. As noted in the opinion the Court had previously sustained a different sort of buffer zone law in Colorado, and nothing in McCullen casts any doubt on the continued validity of the Colorado law (McCullen, slip opinion at 2):


    • Santa Monica Food Not Bombs v. Santa Monica, 450 F.3d 1022 (9th Cir., 2006) in which the court upheld a Santa Monica ordinance requiring a permit for public assemblies. In fact in Santa Monica Food Not Bombs the court specifically acknowledges that the ordinance may burden the protected right, noting, at pg 1038:

Well, yes, incorporation has been piecemeal over time, and was originally resisted by the court, which wasn't surprising given the makeup of the court at the time (e.g. Bradwell v. State of Illinois, Civil Rights Cases, US v. Harris). United States v. Cruikshank was, especially, a political statement against Reconstruction and clearly contrary to any plain reading of the 14th Amendment. But these decisions were largely overturned and I would argue the 20th century decisions were more in line with the intent of the 14th amendment.

Anyway, my main point was that the Bruen decision specifically says "New York’s proper-cause requirement violates the Fourteenth
Amendment by preventing law-abiding citizens with ordinary self-defense needs from exercising their Second Amendment right to keep and
bear arms in public for self-defense."

Perhaps I am wrong, but it appears to me that by referencing the 14th they are pre-emptively incorporating the 2nd. And once incorporated, I don't see how the right can be constrained by state borders, which it effectively is if every state has different regulations and rules and fees and training standards.
 
Last edited:
I'm not testing the waters anywhere until I receive concrete reciprocity info. I make it a point not to go to any state that does not honor my LTC. I passed on a nice motorcycle ride up the west coast once because of this. I don't want or need to be harassed, put in jail or get an attorney to prove a point that is not set in stone...ymmv
 
The laws say that. And federal law also allows for peaceful travel through each state. But try driving through with out of state tags, especially Missouri tags. You will get stopped and searched by the Ill State Police. I have had that happen a few times and I was glad that I took the time to unload and lock up my pistol before crossing the state line.

How far over the speed limit were you going? I visit family in Illinois and Michigan all the time and have never been stopped.
I keep my speeding to 4mph to 9mph over the limit - on the highway. In town I do the speed limit.
 
I'm not testing the waters anywhere until I receive concrete reciprocity info. I make it a point not to go to any state that does not honor my LTC. I passed on a nice motorcycle ride up the west coast once because of this. I don't want or need to be harassed, put in jail or get an attorney to prove a point that is not set in stone...ymmv


Yeah, the west coast is all locked down. I live in WA and my permit isn't recognized by OR, CA or NV. The only way I can go south and carry is through ID. That's what I did the last few years we wintered in the SW. CA and OR are foreign countries for me. I'll make a concession for my wife every few years and travel to OR for her family reunion. Other than that I have no reason to visit OR or CA. They aren't going to change anything there in my lifetime.
 
Yeah, the west coast is all locked down. I live in WA and my permit isn't recognized by OR, CA or NV. The only way I can go south and carry is through ID. That's what I did the last few years we wintered in the SW. CA and OR are foreign countries for me. I'll make a concession for my wife every few years and travel to OR for her family reunion. Other than that I have no reason to visit OR or CA. They aren't going to change anything there in my lifetime.

I have an Aunt and Uncle living in the Seattle area of WA that I need to visit soon. I'd like to bring a carry gun with me and I've read that open carry is legal (for in and out of staters) in WA. My question for you is do you ever see anyone open carrying in the Seattle area? How about your local area?

Here in South West / South Central Missouri, I see open carriers frequently. Even in the "big city" of Springfield, MO.

I carry concealed.
 
How far over the speed limit were you going? I visit family in Illinois and Michigan all the time and have never been stopped.

One time I was doing 5 MPH over. I would have actually believed getting pulled over for obstructing traffic at that time since everyone else was passing me like I was sitting still. The other time I got stopped, they tried saying my license plate light was out, which is wasn't.
 
Perhaps I am wrong, but it appears to me that by referencing the 14th they are pre-emptively incorporating the 2nd. And once incorporated, I don't see how the right can be constrained by state borders, which it effectively is if every state has different regulations and rules and fees and training standards.
I may be mistaken, but I thought the entire point of McDonald v. Chicago was to incorporate the 2nd Amendment to the states via the 14th Amendment in 2010.

https://www.supremecourt.gov/opinions/09pdf/08-1521.pdf
 
One time I was doing 5 MPH over. I would have actually believed getting pulled over for obstructing traffic at that time since everyone else was passing me like I was sitting still. The other time I got stopped, they tried saying my license plate light was out, which is wasn't.

What did they give you for probable cause? You can refuse a search. Do you have gun stickers on your vehicle? What kind of vehicle - old and rusty?
I've never had a problem, I drive a modern vehicles in good condition, and haven't had a ticket or been pulled over in 20+ years.

These past couple of years, I've been visiting my sister in Grand Haven Michigan for Thanksgiving. I drive through Illinois and spend the night in Remington, Indiana. Never been stopped but there's always a 1st.
 
What did they give you for probable cause?

The first time was for going 5mph over the posted speed limit and the second time was for my license plate light being out. The probable cause to search was the fact that I had my CCW permit number on my drivers license. Yes I could have refused them but I didn't want the hassle. This was shortly after Missouri first passed CCW. And yes if the Ill. State Police saw a CCW permit on a Missouri driver license, they would search your vehicle for weapons. It definitely was not right but it did happen.

I have not had any issues since our CCW permits are now on a separate card issued by each county sheriff and also since Illinois has passed their CCW laws.
 
...but it appears to me that by referencing the 14th they are pre-emptively incorporating the 2nd. And once incorporated, I don't see how the right can be constrained by state borders, which it effectively is if every state has different regulations and rules and fees and training standards.

And again, this reflects a fundamental misunderstanding of law:

  1. The question of incorporation was addressed in McDonald v. City of Chicago, 561 U.S. 742 (2010).

  2. MacDonald decided that States were subject to the Second Amendment. In other words, based on the doctrine of incorporation, the Court decided that the Second Amendment protects a fundamental right to "keep and bear arms" that is included in the right to "liberty" protected by the Due Process Clause of the Fourteenth Amendment.

  3. But there's considerable legal authority for the proposition that constitutionally protected rights can be subject to limited regulation. So any state regulation of the rights protected by the Second Amendment must be within the scope of what the courts will ultimately work out to be the scope and extent of constitutionally permissible regulation of those rights.

  4. So your comment:
    .... once incorporated, I don't see how the right can be constrained by state borders, which it effectively is if every state has different regulations and rules and fees and training standards.
    is simply wrong. Even with incorporation, States may still regulate constitutionally protected rights as long as such regulation falls within the scope and extent of constitutionally permissible regulation of those rights.

    But that doesn't mean that regulation of those constitutionally protected rights can't or won't vary from State-to-State.
 
I have an Aunt and Uncle living in the Seattle area of WA that I need to visit soon. I'd like to bring a carry gun with me and I've read that open carry is legal (for in and out of staters) in WA. My question for you is do you ever see anyone open carrying in the Seattle area? How about your local area?

Here in South West / South Central Missouri, I see open carriers frequently. Even in the "big city" of Springfield, MO.

I carry concealed.

Have to check each state's open carry. As I understand it, there is no open carry law in Michigan. It just is open carry only because it has never been prohibited by law. However, in Michigan to open carry without a CPL you have to remove the gun before you get in a car, because once you are in a car with your open carry gun, it becomes concealed carry and you would need a CPL.
 
I have an Aunt and Uncle living in the Seattle area of WA that I need to visit soon. I'd like to bring a carry gun with me and I've read that open carry is legal (for in and out of staters) in WA. My question for you is do you ever see anyone open carrying in the Seattle area? How about your local area?

Here in South West / South Central Missouri, I see open carriers frequently. Even in the "big city" of Springfield, MO.

I carry concealed.

Nobody open carries on the west side. That's everywhere west of the Cascade mountain range. I'm in Island county which is fairly rural but no OC here. At least I haven't seen it except in my rural neighborhood. Haven't seen it at the local market, gas station or Home Depot. I think most everyone who carries does it concealed in this neck of the woods. WA doesn't recognize your MO permit according to this website. https://www.usconcealedcarry.com/resources/ccw_reciprocity_map/wa-gun-laws/

I wouldn't let that keep you from visiting the Seattle area. Odds are you'll be fine. I lived in Seattle and adjacent cities for 23 years and never needed a piece. I've had a permit since 92. Just don't go into Seattle (the city) and you'll be fine.

There's lots off rude aholes about but just ignore them. The fact is WA is a shall issue state and you just never know who might being doing the hole punching.
 
Last edited:
Nobody open carries on the west side. That's everywhere west of the Cascade mountain range
Gonna have to disagree a bit here.

Kitsap, Mason, Clallam, even Jefferson counties... although not truly commonplace, it's seen. Even in the more rural areas of Pierce County. Can't speak to Snohomish County, but I know there's a lot of active OCers up in Whatcom County.

I wouldn't let that keep you from visiting the Seattle area.
Yikes! Maybe "area," but as you said, nothing worth visiting Seattle anymore (and it's a shame). Anyone been downtown lately, especially around Alaskan Way? Try walking from one of the stadiums to the ferry terminal late at night sometime and let me know how safe you feel (since even for off-duty LEOs, no guns allowed in the ballparks). Anywhere around Pike Place (all the way up 3rd is still a hot mess) or Pioneer Square after dark; heck, even the U District is getting lively.

Back on topic, I see no way the out-of-state carry situation will improve in spite of the recent SCOTUS decisions. On paper, reciprocity might expand, but the New York and California models (restricting any concealed carry in all public areas) will prevail.
 
I just don't get out much since the black death except north of Everett occasionally. I'm sure the farther away you get from the metro areas you will probably see OC to some degree. I don't see it where I live but lots of pavement dwellers have moved here in the last 10 years from places like Seattle, Portland and CA. I did however see one person near Quinault over on the peninsula last month walking on the side of the road in OC mode. I guess that's the west side so I exaggerated a bit. ;)

I declined a wedding invitation last month because it was in the Fremont district. There was no parking within 4 blocks of the event and walking anywhere in Seattle is a non starter for me.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top