WrongHanded
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Featureless, limited capacity AR-15 vs Tactical Shotgun
- Thread starter Rival
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Typically related to poor quality magazines or improperly seated mags. Neither should be a problem if you have a tested setup with a fixed magazine.
westernrover
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Who will use the weapon? The AR-15 is ideal for multiple users -- for example, you, your wife, your adult daughter... Not everybody's wife is going to run a tactical 12 ga. well because of the fit and high recoil. Most people can run an AR with an adjustable LOP and a little training due to the low recoil and adjustable fit. Now of course shotguns can be fitted with adjustable stocks and you can use low recoil ammo, but there are tradeoffs there. One of the reason police switched from shotguns to AR's for shared weapons systems is because they fit everybody better, whereas the traditional shotgun did not fit all the sizes and shapes of officers in modern forces.
If the weapon is for you, then you have to determine what you can do well with. If you're capable of receiving a fair amount of training and putting to practice what you learn effectively and you're a fully able-bodied man, then you could practically use a 12 ga. to good effect. Ammo selection will be important, as will the aforementioned training. In the LA area, I highly recommend ITTS -- whether for handgun, carbine (AR/Mini-14), or combat shotgun. Take the classes, and then decide. You can use their rentals, just reserve one ahead of time because I don't know how many they have. Most people take their own guns, but using their rental during a one-day class would be an ideal way to try each with a very practical means to evaluate them for yourself. The best deal would be to take their Weapons Trio class. It's Carbine, Handgun, and Shotgun -- all in one day.
https://internationaltactical.com/weaponstrio.html
It might not be offered soon since it's not on their calendar. But if you call them and they confirm unavailability, then just sign up for separate shotgun and carbine classes on different weekends. Carbine is weekend of October 22-23, and Shotgun is November 5-6.
If the weapon is for you, then you have to determine what you can do well with. If you're capable of receiving a fair amount of training and putting to practice what you learn effectively and you're a fully able-bodied man, then you could practically use a 12 ga. to good effect. Ammo selection will be important, as will the aforementioned training. In the LA area, I highly recommend ITTS -- whether for handgun, carbine (AR/Mini-14), or combat shotgun. Take the classes, and then decide. You can use their rentals, just reserve one ahead of time because I don't know how many they have. Most people take their own guns, but using their rental during a one-day class would be an ideal way to try each with a very practical means to evaluate them for yourself. The best deal would be to take their Weapons Trio class. It's Carbine, Handgun, and Shotgun -- all in one day.
https://internationaltactical.com/weaponstrio.html
It might not be offered soon since it's not on their calendar. But if you call them and they confirm unavailability, then just sign up for separate shotgun and carbine classes on different weekends. Carbine is weekend of October 22-23, and Shotgun is November 5-6.
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Corpral_Agarn
Member
Despite all of the options I have available I still have a 4-inch barrel "K-frame" 357 Mag revolver and an 18-inch barrel 870 (6+1) wood stock shotgun as my go-to bedside firearms.
They're all tricked out to work better than they did when I bought them. My latest acquisition for the 870 is a set of ghost ring sights (Scattergun Technologies) sold by Wilson Combat.
Bottom line is, use what works for you. It might not work for someone else.
They're all tricked out to work better than they did when I bought them. My latest acquisition for the 870 is a set of ghost ring sights (Scattergun Technologies) sold by Wilson Combat.
Bottom line is, use what works for you. It might not work for someone else.
Corpral_Agarn
Member
And to speak to jams:
When a malfunction occurs with a juggernaut system the bolt carrier is at least part way inside the buffer tube.
This means you can't just crack open the rifle with the rear pin and expect anything meaningful to happen.
When a malfunction occurs with a juggernaut system the bolt carrier is at least part way inside the buffer tube.
This means you can't just crack open the rifle with the rear pin and expect anything meaningful to happen.
Kills the idea of capacity greater than 10 rounds then.
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Corpral_Agarn
Member
It was a simple question or option the OP hadn't thought of. . While I would definitely pick a 1301 over an AR if in the same boat.
However, I live in a free state so what I choose for HD is not relevant.
What would a "featureless" CA compliant AR look like that would allow a 30 round removable magazine?
luzyfuerza
Member
The OP is in Los Angeles, so California magazine and rifle configuration rules apply.
Were I in your location, and I wanted a long gun for HD, I would select a 12 gauge pump shotgun over a CA-compliant AR-style rifle.
Loaded with 00 or #4 buckshot, a shotgun is devastatingly effective in the HD mission. With an 18 1/2" barrel and a shortened buttstock, it is reasonably light and handy. With a velco sidesaddle and a 5+1 tube, it carries plenty of ammo. Install a TL Racker forearm for $110, and it has a terrific gun-mounted light, which is essential for the HD role.
Be sure to get good training. Stick to the Mossberg 88/500/590 or Remington 870 models. Pattern different buckshot loads in your specific gun and stick with ammo that best works in your situation. Practice a lot, both dry and at the range with live ammo. Plan on storing it "cruiser ready". Secure your shotgun against unauthorized access using a CA-approved device.
There are threads on THR that explain each of these recommendations.
But I repeat: training is a must!
Once you know how to use it, a quality, properly-loaded shotgun is an effective tool for HD in your environment.
Were I in your location, and I wanted a long gun for HD, I would select a 12 gauge pump shotgun over a CA-compliant AR-style rifle.
Loaded with 00 or #4 buckshot, a shotgun is devastatingly effective in the HD mission. With an 18 1/2" barrel and a shortened buttstock, it is reasonably light and handy. With a velco sidesaddle and a 5+1 tube, it carries plenty of ammo. Install a TL Racker forearm for $110, and it has a terrific gun-mounted light, which is essential for the HD role.
Be sure to get good training. Stick to the Mossberg 88/500/590 or Remington 870 models. Pattern different buckshot loads in your specific gun and stick with ammo that best works in your situation. Practice a lot, both dry and at the range with live ammo. Plan on storing it "cruiser ready". Secure your shotgun against unauthorized access using a CA-approved device.
There are threads on THR that explain each of these recommendations.
But I repeat: training is a must!
Once you know how to use it, a quality, properly-loaded shotgun is an effective tool for HD in your environment.
Corpral_Agarn
Member
You appear to have some posted with that pic.
It has to do with semi automatic action combined with "features" that would constitute a CA AW.
CA specifically calls out fixed mag semis with over 10 rounds as AWs.
It's dumb and you see non compliance all over the place here.
ETA:
Any combination of two is the break over point. in my case I configure (only one evil feature):
Grip fin (not a pistol grip)
Muzzle brake (flash hiders are "evil")
Standard Mag release
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Legionnaire
Contributing Member
I think both have their advantages. I'd opt for a youth-stocked 20 gauge if living in an urban/suburban neighborhood, an AR or PCC if more rural.
My two cents, worth what you paid for it.
My two cents, worth what you paid for it.
I live in an urban setting, my two primary home defense weapons are bullpups, the KS7 and my SDS (import) semi auto with 5 round mags. Both are 12 gauge but I know they make others in 20 gauge and 410, just not the KS7.
I like the bullpups because of how compact they are and how quickly I can bring them into the ready position.
I like the bullpups because of how compact they are and how quickly I can bring them into the ready position.
That was my failed attempt at humor and not meant as any sort of dig at you. Your posts are always worth a read. California has so many laws and restrictions in different areas I am not even 100% sure whats allowed there anymore.
When people say Home security I tend to think Inside the house. For me thats handgun or Shotgun (kids and wife in the house). Over penetration being an issue. Something like SHTF I would be looking more to Mid Range rifles and carbines.
I tend to tell people to keep a set of hearing protection near their home security firearms. Hopefully someday suppresors will be less of a hassle and your average gun owner can have his/her home protection without damaging their hearing should they ever need to use it.
herrwalther
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If I were living in a restricted state, I would opt for the shotgun instead of a featureless AR. A lot of the advantages to an AR are nullified by the state's war on "assault weapons." You also have to think of the aftermath of a self defense shooting. Being in California, you are going to be vilified for using a firearm anyway. Knowing that, it is important that the media bullseye on you is as small as possible. A pump shotgun isn't considered "as evil" in the public eye as even a featureless AR.
FL-NC
Member
Not a problem I have, but a friend of mine who retired from the USMC says the mini 14 is a good option in cali. You lose a lot by it not being of the AR type, but I guess you can still use detachable mags.
Corpral_Agarn
Member
The advantages (over a shotgun) of a properly configured featureless AR are the same as a regular one.
Elkins45
Member
I disagree. The primary advantage of a shotgun is 9 .32 caliber holes per trigger pull. Shotguns and rifles need the same amount of aiming at indoor distances.
Not to mention the spread isn't as wide as many think it is at fairly close range, about a 4-5" spread at 10 feet up to maybe 9-10" at 20 feet. After that the spread is such that an intruder might be wounded but probably not incapacitated.
If it's choked then the pattern is going to be even tighter over the same distance.
theotherwaldo
Member
Another advantage for shotguns is the reduced likelihood of over-penetration for most loads... .
That's another myth. Over penetration will happen with basically all buck shot especially out of a 12 gauge. Even the lightest bird shot load will result in some over penetration but not much out of a 12 gauge, none out of a 20 gauge. The lightest bird shot load will get the job done in close quarters.
There are more than enough YouTube videos that demonstrate this.
theotherwaldo
Member
-That's why I switched to mini-shells in my bed-side Mossberg.
Also, it's nice to have nine loads on tap... .
Also, it's nice to have nine loads on tap... .
wally
Member
The more I shoot it, the more I think my SDS BP12 is better than anything but maybe an HK MP5 under 50 yards (CQB, aka "home defense").
Consider an MP5 30 -- rounds of 9mm in like 3 seconds. My BP12 can deliver 10 rounds of Federal 000 10 pellet buckshot in well under 10 seconds. That is 100 0.36 lead balls compared to 30 124 gr 0.355 9mm rounds. I'm pretty sure I can fire of 10 rounds of 3" 000 buckshot before 90 rounds of 9mm can be fired form an MP5 with two mag changes. Speed is not the only thing of course.
Consider with 3 shot bursts, the MP5 gets 10 bursts per mag, I get 10 10-pellet bursts per 10 round mag with the BP12. The same applies to my Saiga12, which has a 20 round drum, but the handling an ergonomics of the BP12 blows away the Saiga.
Consider an MP5 30 -- rounds of 9mm in like 3 seconds. My BP12 can deliver 10 rounds of Federal 000 10 pellet buckshot in well under 10 seconds. That is 100 0.36 lead balls compared to 30 124 gr 0.355 9mm rounds. I'm pretty sure I can fire of 10 rounds of 3" 000 buckshot before 90 rounds of 9mm can be fired form an MP5 with two mag changes. Speed is not the only thing of course.
Consider with 3 shot bursts, the MP5 gets 10 bursts per mag, I get 10 10-pellet bursts per 10 round mag with the BP12. The same applies to my Saiga12, which has a 20 round drum, but the handling an ergonomics of the BP12 blows away the Saiga.
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