Is a body cam my best legal protection as a CCW Person?
- Thread starter KNightshaus
- Start date
- Status
dogtown tom
Member
Name those many states.
No state prohibits video recording of anyone, at any time, when in a public place. Same for photographs.
The reason is while in a public place there is no expectation of privacy.
Electrod47
Member
Prosecutor to the Jury. " Lady's and Gentlemen We will show you how the Defendant even wore a camera during the the murder of this poor man so that he could demonstrate to all how righteous he is in his justification. We will prove how this premeditated execution came about, using the defendants own words and video to.....................
davethedog
Member
- Joined
- Mar 22, 2022
- Messages
- 60
Ok here's some input from someone who wears a bodycam while riding a motorcycle. It's not recording all the time and it can be placed on standby to where it can be activated with the push of a button. People see bikers wearing gopro's and such all the time so no one pays much attention to it. The one i have is just as good as any police body camera and records in the same quality as a gopro. I wear it to document any police hassles as i open carry or concealed carry(i have CCW) most of the time on the bike. Anyone wearing one better have good situational awareness, a good understanding of the "rules of engagement', and a good working knowledge of the laws of your state plus some common sense. If you get into some kind of jam that camera is evidence.
davethedog
Member
- Joined
- Mar 22, 2022
- Messages
- 60
Oh yeah i forgot to add, if things really go south you might have to eat the memory card. I believe a little mustard would help it taste better.
dogtown tom
Member
Yeah, thats happened how many times in an officer involved shooting?
None, zero, zilch.Body cam footage shows what happened, not a mindset nor premeditation. Body cams showing both lawful shootings and unlawful shootings are all over the internet. In not a one did a prosecutor says the defendant wore his body camera as evidence of premeditation.
Its a silly argument. Body cams/dash cams/classroom cams document facts.
If the defendant made a claim not verified by the video or demonstrably contrary to the video he may find the video less helpful.
twofewscrews
Member
To the OP, how visible is the body cam? If its small enough to be practically invisible then it may serve you well, if its large enough to be seen it might get you into some hot water. Say for example, a group of hoodlums/idiots/drunks are on the street corner harassing pedestrians, verbally but edging towards physically. You walk by hoping to avoid conflict, not making eye contact, but one of the hoodlums/idiots/drunks notices your body camera and gets into their head that your some kind of "snitch" or freak or are recording them. Suddenly you become a target.
Not saying its super likely but possible.
Not saying its super likely but possible.
Old Dog
Member
Video only is typically legal (unless you're going to share faces on the internet). But educate yourself on the restrictions for capturing audio recordings, even in public, especially if you are in the conversation and you're in a two-party consent state.
herrwalther
Member
- Joined
- May 1, 2013
- Messages
- 8,127
I have thought about this myself for several years. Most notably after working a job where I did wear a body camera and it did get me out of trouble several times when accusations came about. Opposite that occupation where the body camera had to be visible, I would want a body camera to be as nondescript as possible. Like those "spy pens" that have a camera in a pen end cap. But I have yet to see one that had good enough image quality for me so I haven't jumped on them yet. I also work in a health care facility so I would not be wearing a camera at work due to HIPAA.
KNightshaus
Member
- Joined
- Oct 18, 2022
- Messages
- 6
The camara is a little smaller than a Flip phone. I have a friend who does kydex and what I am thinking is a holder that would let me carry it in the front collar of my shirt with just the lens and button (Maybe an inch?) protruding. I will try to update as the carry method and suitability (video audio quality etc.) of the camara prove out. I Don't wear any kind of vest or tactical gear not even 501s. Tacti cool I'm not.
As davethedog said above and you point out Situational Awareness is everything. One thing I would change or add to. hoodlums/idiots/drunks, is Homeless There is a lot of mental illness in the homeless community. This makes them irrational and unpredictable. I try to avoid areas they set up their encampments whenever and as much as possible.
Another point about Situational Awareness and possibly more to davethedogs point is tying in identification of possible threats to documenting the behaviors that are concerning, (Basically the whole reason for carry of the camara.
My reason for wanting to carry a camara is I want there to be more Facts. I am willing to accept the responsibility for my actions. BASED on the Facts. Provided by the Audio and Video.
The whole "It can be used against you" argument is a big Duh to me. I accepted that responsibility as a weapon carrier. What seems to underly that contention is the idea that if there's no video and you've done something "Wrong" maybe no one will notice, and you can get a pass. I am not aiming that at anyone because on the face of it, it is a legitimate point. Good reason to be well trained in arming and use of force.
One of my major questions (and probably the main reason I started this thread) is about Chain of Custody. Ideally (It seems to me) I would maintain custody until I could turn the video over to my attorney. That's probably not the way it would go. So, it would probably be seized at the scene. Would I get any documentation (A receipt?) I think this is where without making a statement I assist the police in securing evidence.
KNightshaus
Member
- Joined
- Oct 18, 2022
- Messages
- 6
Your post makes my point as to why It would be advantageous to wear a camara.
You do know don't you that there is a train of thought in DA's and prosecutors that says Self Defense violates the aggressor's right to Due Process. The audio and video are only facts. Which would show absence of any premeditation to do any harm to anyone and establish Factually that my actions were in self-defense.
If the facts showed not premeditation, but some wrongful action on my part. Shouldn't I be punished appropriately? Is there some underlying belief being expressed here that if there is "Just no camara present" maybe I can slide by?
If a person is so afraid of be held accountable maybe, they should rethink carrying a gun.
I am not trying to force anything on anyone. I would like to drop this line of discussion and turn to how to best use the gathering and presentation of facts could best be used to defend Lawful use of force.
For reasons already explored by prior posters, a body-worn camera (or any camera, really) is a double-edged sword.
jmorris
Member
- Joined
- Sep 30, 2005
- Messages
- 24,138
I think it depends if it’s used for you or against you.
These may give you some food for thought.
https://bwctta.com/resources/commen...-worn-cameras-understanding-union-perspective
https://bwctta.com/resources/commen...-worn-cameras-understanding-union-perspective
https://www.aclu.org/issues/privacy-technology/surveillance-technologies/police-body-cameras
These may give you some food for thought.
https://bwctta.com/resources/commen...-worn-cameras-understanding-union-perspective
https://bwctta.com/resources/commen...-worn-cameras-understanding-union-perspective
https://www.aclu.org/issues/privacy-technology/surveillance-technologies/police-body-cameras
dogtown tom
Member
I know that.....thats why I responded to your post that said otherwise:
I have. Whether in a two party state or a one party state, consent is not required when in a public place and no expectation of privacy exists.
"Stick 'em up! Give me your wallet!" uttered (even in a whisper) in a private place isn't private speech and does not require consent of the speaker to record.
KNightshaus
Member
- Joined
- Oct 18, 2022
- Messages
- 6
To all those who are having the thought "I would never do that! Or " Can and Will be used against You.
Absolutely! In this day Completely lawful use of a firearm can and Will be used against you even with no body cam present.
My question is why are you so afraid of having your ACTUAL behavior and actions documented? What's lacking in your Training Behavior and Mindset? Why Are you afraid of being Judged on a Factual record?
Maybe you can help me understand. Carrying a weapon makes me libel to attack by Progressive DAs and Media. ???
Absolutely! In this day Completely lawful use of a firearm can and Will be used against you even with no body cam present.
My question is why are you so afraid of having your ACTUAL behavior and actions documented? What's lacking in your Training Behavior and Mindset? Why Are you afraid of being Judged on a Factual record?
Maybe you can help me understand. Carrying a weapon makes me libel to attack by Progressive DAs and Media. ???
Did you come here to make a statement or ask a question?
I'm not "afraid" of it. What I am is aware that no matter how thin you pour a pancake, it still has two sides. IOW, a body cam video of a self-defense shooting is one more variable thrown into an already complex legal situation. I don't like variables in my court cases.
Last edited:
jmorris
Member
- Joined
- Sep 30, 2005
- Messages
- 24,138
Would have been a lot more impressive decades ago but Mrs. Morris still wouldn’t have had any part of it…
Why not just start blabbing information to authorities, why would you need a lawyer, if you haven’t done anything wrong?
Why would you want a lawyer, did you do something wrong?
I suppose it’s the “anything you say, can be used against you” part.
dogtown tom
Member
davethedog
Member
- Joined
- Mar 22, 2022
- Messages
- 60
In the end a camera is just a witness that doesn't lie, no more no less.
Just put cameras everywhere, all the time, and record every possible thing you do all day long. It will keep the lawfare boggieman away. Get a car cam too.... just in case. Make sure everything you do all the time is recorded. One can even send it to the internet to show everyone how perfect a person is.
Better start recording any private time you have with females as well in case they acuse you of something.
RECORD EVERYTHING!!!
Or get over it and just accept that life is messy and there are no guarantees. Learn to relax and not be paranoid of every possible thing that can go wrong all the time. If you cant do that on your own maybe see a shrink.
I have never joined the cult of the cell phone. Contrary to modern beliefs... it is possible to live and function in society without all this tech people think is so critical. I have very little stress in my daily life by design as does out family household.
Better start recording any private time you have with females as well in case they acuse you of something.
RECORD EVERYTHING!!!
Or get over it and just accept that life is messy and there are no guarantees. Learn to relax and not be paranoid of every possible thing that can go wrong all the time. If you cant do that on your own maybe see a shrink.
I have never joined the cult of the cell phone. Contrary to modern beliefs... it is possible to live and function in society without all this tech people think is so critical. I have very little stress in my daily life by design as does out family household.
Mauser fan
Member
If you are Law Enforcement maybe but again that is a dual edge sword. Which side are you going to fall on the sharp or the dull side? I see no benefit to having one as a CCW holder.
This is just another can of worms being opened up.
This is just another can of worms being opened up.
I'll return to Goetz. One key point in the prosecution was that Goetz supposedly said something like: Here's another one for you - to an already downed 'attacker'. Whether he was an attacker worthy of lethal force was debated. If he was, whether another shot was debate. Where the shots went was debated. The witnesses were split on whether he said that. Their testimony varied in believably. Goetz said that he might have said that.
If he did, he might have been sunk. However, the brilliant defense managed to convince the jury: 1. That it wasn't really heard by others and 2. Goetz's recall of saying that might have been him thinking it in the heat of the incident. All this leading to reasonable doubt over the utterance.
Now would a camera and sound have sunk him on: Whether the young men's approach was worthy of lethal force and whether his actions after the first application of lethal force where appropriate and was he blood lusted in his utterances?
His use of hollow points and a tactical holster were presented as a blood lusted mind set leading to an inappropriate shooting.
The premise of the OP is that the shooting is righteous to begin with and the video will confirm. What if it is ambiguous? Does it remove the reasonable doubt defense? Now, for cops, they are public servants so mandating their usage is a different game. We want to know if they acted appropriately.
Some things to think about.
If he did, he might have been sunk. However, the brilliant defense managed to convince the jury: 1. That it wasn't really heard by others and 2. Goetz's recall of saying that might have been him thinking it in the heat of the incident. All this leading to reasonable doubt over the utterance.
Now would a camera and sound have sunk him on: Whether the young men's approach was worthy of lethal force and whether his actions after the first application of lethal force where appropriate and was he blood lusted in his utterances?
His use of hollow points and a tactical holster were presented as a blood lusted mind set leading to an inappropriate shooting.
The premise of the OP is that the shooting is righteous to begin with and the video will confirm. What if it is ambiguous? Does it remove the reasonable doubt defense? Now, for cops, they are public servants so mandating their usage is a different game. We want to know if they acted appropriately.
Some things to think about.
Depends.
If the defense's case might have been winnable otherwise, a recording of "you asked for it, bub, and now you get it" could help to cook the defendant's goose.
In an ambiguous case in which the defendant claims that the unarmed victim had made a "furtive movement", video could establish things one way or the other.
Be careful of your words when you pull your gun, camera or no.
If the defense's case might have been winnable otherwise, a recording of "you asked for it, bub, and now you get it" could help to cook the defendant's goose.
In an ambiguous case in which the defendant claims that the unarmed victim had made a "furtive movement", video could establish things one way or the other.
Be careful of your words when you pull your gun, camera or no.
- Status
