Is "six" still enough for defense?

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I did a thread not long ago, Capacity of the handgun you carry most of the time:
https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...he-handgun-you-carry-most-of-the-time.906092/

75% of people that responded (voted in the poll) carry a handgun with more than 6 rounds capacity.

...and I would guess that 75% of those, have never "realistically" practiced SD, in a scenario where one would need more than 6 rounds. Most folks don't have the slightest idea of what to do in a "firefight", which is more than one armed assailant, much less practiced regularly at a distance of more than 10 yards. How many practice under the stress of an attacker that is shooting back? Or from deep cover at a moving target? Does no good to have tools that you do not know how to use, yet realistically, that is what I see all the time at the range.

A statement like that merits a little research...
https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...-j-frame-revolver.911174/page-2#post-12430068
"Yep, model 637....it gets rotated on a regular basis with the Kimber Micro .380."

https://www.kimberamerica.com/micro-two-tone-380

Kimber micro 380 has a mag capacity of 7 so it could have 8 round total capacity.
Sometimes you carry more than 6 rounds.

A "rotation" between a revolver or a 1911 micro 380, Ya say.
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Both autos and revolvers have their advantages and disadvantages. When I carry an auto, I prefer to carry as many rounds as I can carry in the circumstances. I often carry a CZ PCR with 14 or 15 round mags, I've recently purchased and put ~1000 rounds through a Glock 19, when I need smaller, I've recently replaced my SIG P290RS with a SIG P365 with both 10 round flush and 12 round mags. However, I often find myself carrying a small framed revolver. Forget measurements, I find revolvers often carry better. The rounded lines vs. sharp edges make it conceal better, and it is more comfortable IWB. I have recently (i.e. about 3 years ago), replaced my 5 shot S&W 442 and Taurus 85CH with a 6 shot Taurus 856UL and Colt King Cobra (new model), and I do sometimes carry two 5 or 6 shot revolvers to double the round count, so even there, I prefer as much ammo on board as I can carry given the circumstances.


Edit to add:

There are so many ways to look at it, and all are true...

Usually, drawing your gun will be enough to make your attacker think twice and run (or surrender).

Usually, if you have to fire a round, being hit will be enough that your attacker will run or surrender.

Usually, the typical self defense scenario is under 3 yards, and takes 3 or fewer shots.

However, if you do face a dedicated attacker, didn't the FBI put out numbers some years ago (based on police shootings) that, on average, it takes 3 hits to stop a dedicated attacker. Based on police shootings, it takes (on average) 3 shots to make a hit when faced with the stress and adrenaline of a defensive shoot. That means it can easily take 9 shots to stop one attacker when just taking out the gun (and maybe shooting once) isn't enough. Now add in multiple attackers...

Now, when thinking about multiple attackers, this can be taken to extremes, and most likely, we'll never even need the gun at all.

So, based on your risk/stakes analysis, plus of course your lifestyle requirements (how do you dress, where are you going, etc.), make the choice that works best for you.
 
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As the old saying goes, the average SD situation is 3 shots, 3 seconds, 3 feet. Personally, if I'm a perp and shot comes at me, I'm going to find something else to do, after I get out of the hospital.
 
Using a handgun in self-defense WILL involve neutralizing the attacker with one or two rounds at very close range; indeed, one will likely be in physical contact with his attacker.

Using a handgun in self-defense MAY involve neutralizing the attacker with one or two rounds at very close range; indeed, one will likely be in physical contact with his attacker.

Until it doesn't. Rare but other things do happen. Indianapolis mall? Yep, the good guy could have fled. Want to go over the rampages with two or more shooters and not close up. Rare but it does happen. Where I worked, the likely incident wasn't going to be one mugger dude close up but a crazy. Not a locale where muggers prowled for economic crime but would be targeted by a mass shooter.

Good article on the limited capacity guns: https://www.shootingillustrated.com...e-drawbacks-of-a-subcompact-single-stack-9mm/

Not going to change the mind of the super duper never miss with two shots guys who will only ever come across one mugger. Until the next time!

Oh, PS - A message from Joe Biden:

Join me in banning higher capacity guns and magazines. The knowledgeable gun user acknowledges they are not necessary because:



Thus, there is no need for anything beyond a derringer. I will if re-elected ban and confiscate all guns that can carry more than 6 shots. Gun owners, if responsible join me. Only the crazed killer will want more.

From your 'Shooting Illustrated' link:

"Six rounds are likely enough for the vast, vast majority of violent criminal encounters"
 
Yes. 6 once. 6 twice. 6 three times.

index.php

That turns out as 666

Some of us don't like that
 
What does the data say?
A bunch of shooting data compiled over decades were presented in Duncan v Becerra, (Now Duncan v Bonta, CA magazine ban case) - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...r-aw-magazine-ban.905531/page-8#post-12381111

"... from the perspective of a victim trying to defend her home and family, the time required to re-load a pistol after the tenth shot might be called a 'lethal pause,' as it typically takes a victim much longer to re-load (if they can do it at all) than a perpetrator planning an attack ... the re-loading 'pause' ... tends to create an even more dangerous time for every victim who must try to defend herself with a small-capacity magazine. The need to re-load and the lengthy pause that comes with ... small-capacity magazines is especially unforgiving for victims who are disabled, or who have arthritis, or who are trying to hold a phone in their off-hand while attempting to call for police help ... law-abiding, citizen-victims who must also pause while under attack"​

And in his March of 2019 ruling with judgement, judge Benitez wrote the following why law abiding citizens need larger than 10 round capacity magazines for their handguns in defense of their lives from attackers who intend to rob/torture/rape/murder them:

Few would say that a 100 or 50-round rifle magazine in the hands of a murderer is a good idea. Yet, the “solution” for preventing a mass shooting exacts a high toll on the everyday freedom of ordinary law-abiding citizens. Many individual robberies, rapes, and shootings are not prevented by the State. Unless a law-abiding individual has a firearm for his or her own defense, the police typically arrive after it is too late ... victim, nevertheless, is dead, or raped, or robbed, or traumatized (Page 7)​

... The Second Amendment protects the would-be American victim’s freedom and liberty to take matters into one’s own hands and protect one’s self and family until help arrives. (Page 8)

Some say that the use of “large capacity magazines” increases the lethality of gun violence. They point out that when large capacity magazines are used in mass shootings, more shots are fired, more people are wounded, and more wounds are fatal than in other mass shootings ... Nothing in the Second Amendment makes lethality a factor to consider because a gun’s lethality, or dangerousness, is assumed (Page 21)

If the “too lethal” standard is followed to its logical conclusion, the government may dictate in the future that a magazine of eight rounds is too lethal. And after that, it may dictate that a gun with a magazine holding three rounds is too lethal since a person usually fires only 2.2 rounds in self-defense. This stepped-down approach may continue until the time comes when government declares that only guns holding a single round are sufficiently lacking in lethality
. (Page 22)

If preventing mass shootings is the state’s interest, it is not at all clear that it would be compelling since such events are exceedingly rare. If the state’s interest is in forcing a “pause” during a mass shooting for a shooter to be apprehended, those events are even more rare.

The State’s theoretical and empirical evidence is not persuasive. Why 10 rounds as a limit? The State has no answer. Why is there no thought given to possession in and around a home? It is inconclusive at best ... Mass shootings are tragic. But they are rare events. And of these rare events, many are committed without large capacity magazines. (Page 46-47)

The findings from the Mayors Against Illegal Guns survey 2009-2013 ... “To sum up, of the 92 mass killings occurring across the 50 states between 2013 and 2009, only ten occurred in California. Of those ten, the criminalization and dispossession requirements of § 32310 would have had no effect on eight of the shootings, and only marginal good effects had it been in effect at the time of the remaining two shootings. On this evidence, § 32310 is not a reasonable fit. It hardly fits at all. It appears on this record to be a haphazard solution likely to have no effect on an exceedingly rare problem, while at the same time burdening the Constitutional rights of many other California law-abiding responsible citizen-owners of gun magazines holding more than 10 rounds.” (Page 48)

... the state attempts to bolster the data from the Mayors’ survey with a Mother Jones Magazine 36-year survey of mass shootings from 1982 to 2018. The Mother Jones findings are even less convincing ... 98 mass shooting events in the last 36 years ... 17 took place in California ... prohibition on magazines holding more than 10 rounds would have done nothing to keep a shooter from shooting more than 10 rounds. That is because normally the perpetrator brings multiple weapons. (Page 49)

The more weapons, the greater the firepower and the greater the potential for casualties. In 14 of the 17 California mass shooting events, multiple weapons were brought. For example, in the 1988 mass shooting event in Sunnyvale, the shooter brought two pistols, two revolvers, two shotguns, and a bolt action rifle (all obtained legally). No large capacity magazines were used. (Page 50)

California’s large capacity magazine prohibition also had no effect on the three single weapon mass shooting events
. In the Fresno event in April 2017, a revolver was used. For those unschooled on firearms, a revolver does not use a magazine of any size. In the next mass shooting event in Oakland in April 2012, the shooter used a pistol with four California-legal 10-round magazines. In the third mass shooting event in Goleta in January 2006, the shooter did use a pistol with a 15-round magazine. However, the shooter resided in New Mexico. She purchased the firearm and its 15-round magazine legally in New Mexico. She then traveled into California to Goleta to the postal facility where she had been employed three years prior. By 2006, California already prohibited a person from bringing into the state a large capacity magazine, but it did not prevent the Goleta tragedy from taking place. (Page 50)

Santa Monica June 2013
event where the shooter was armed with multiple firearms and 40 large-capacity magazines ... AR-15 and the illegal magazines may have been illegally imported from outside of California. Receiving and importing magazines holding any more than 10 rounds was already unlawful under California law at the time ... criminalizing possession of magazines holding any more than 10 rounds likely would not have provided any additional protection from gun violence for citizens or police officers. Nor would it have prevented the crime.

The AG’s evidence demonstrates that ... criminalization of large capacity magazine acquisition and possession has had no effect on reducing the number of shots a perpetrator can fire
. (Page 51)

Where did this idea come from, the idea that a court is required to fully credit evidence only “reasonably believed to be relevant?” ... This is federal court. The Attorney General has submitted two unofficial surveys to prove mass shootings are a problem made worse by firearm magazines holding more than 10 rounds.​

Do the surveys pass the Federal Rule of Evidence Rule 403 test for relevance? Yes.​

Are the surveys admissible under Federal Rule of Evidence Rule 802? No.​

They are double or triple hearsay. No foundation has been laid. No authentication attempted.​

Are they reliable? No.​

Are they anything more than a selected compilation of news articles – articles which are themselves inadmissible? No.​

Are the compilers likely to be biased? Yes. (Page 52-53)​

This case is about a muscular constitutional right and whether a state can impinge and imprison its citizens for exercising that right. This case is about whether a state objective is possibly important enough to justify the impingement. (Page 54)​

No case has held that intermediate scrutiny would permit a state to impinge even slightly on the Second Amendment right by employing a known failed experiment. Congress tried for a decade the nationwide experiment of prohibiting large capacity magazines. It failed. California has continued the failed experiment for another decade and now suggests that it may continue to do so ad infinitum without demonstrating success. That makes no sense. (Page 59)​

Ten years of a federal ban on large-capacity magazines did not stop mass shootings nationally. Twenty years of a California ban on large capacity magazines have not stopped mass shootings in California. (Page 62)​

The reason for the adoption of the Second Amendment was to protect the citizens of the new nation from the power of an oppressive state ... With Colonists still hurting from the wounds of war, the Second Amendment guaranteed the rights of new American citizens to protect themselves from oppressors foreign and domestic. So, now it is ironic that the State whittles away at the right of its citizens to defend themselves from the possible oppression of their State. (Page 62)​

The State relies on expert witness, Professor Louis Klarevas. Professor Klarevas says that banning large capacity magazines will reduce violence and force shooters to take a critical pause. However ... Tucson shooting would have likely still happened with a ban on high capacity magazines ... Moreover, even if Loughner showed up with a six-bullet revolver as opposed to a 30-round Glock, he likely still would have shot people. What’s more, a person set on inflicting mass casualties will get around any clip prohibitions by having additional clips on his person (as Loughner did anyway) or by carrying more than one fully loaded weapon. (Page 65)​

The State argues that smaller magazines create a “critical pause” in the shooting of a mass killer. “The prohibition of LCMs helps create a “critical pause” that has been proven to give victims an opportunity to hide, escape, or disable a shooter.” This may be the case for attackers. On the other hand, from the perspective of a victim trying to defend her home and family, the time required to re-load a pistol after the tenth shot might be called a “lethal pause,” as it typically takes a victim much longer to re-load (if they can do it at all) than a perpetrator planning an attack.​

In other words, the re-loading “pause” the State seeks in hopes of stopping a mass shooter, also tends to create an even more dangerous time for every victim who must try to defend herself with a small-capacity magazine. The need to re-load and the lengthy pause that comes with banning all but small-capacity magazines is especially unforgiving for victims who are disabled, or who have arthritis, or who are trying to hold a phone in their off-hand while attempting to call for police help.​

The good that a re-loading pause might do in the extremely rare mass shooting incident is vastly outweighed by the harm visited on manifold law-abiding, citizen-victims who must also pause while under attack. This blanket ban without any tailoring to these types of needs goes to show § 32310’s lack of reasonable fit. (Page 74)​

CONCLUSION - Magazines holding more than 10 rounds are “arms.” California Penal Code Section 32310, as amended by Proposition 63, burdens the core of the Second Amendment by criminalizing the acquisition and possession of these magazines that are commonly held by law-abiding citizens for defense of self, home, and state ... California Penal Code § 32310 is hereby declared to be unconstitutional in its entirety and shall be enjoined. (Page 84)​
 
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Your Post

Thank you, but that is not what I meant.

My fault for saying "data" instead of "credibly researched statistics."

What I meant was the OP should search for credibly researched statistics that result in something that reads like "Out of X number of shootings during a Y year period, Z percentage of them involved (Insert Number Here) shots or less."

-Stan
 
Thank you, but that is not what I meant.

My fault for saying "data" instead of "credibly researched statistics.
"
"Is 'six' still enough for defense?"

My Vietnam vet step-father always kept a .357 revolver on person or when traveling/camping with family and growing up, I saw him pull it out a few times. While he never had to shoot it, just the presentation of the revolver quickly and quietly ended any escalating argument/conflict he was involved in, in defense of his life and his family ... us ... me.

While I shot 10/22 growing up, my first introduction to pistols was in the Army when I was "volunteered" to help out in our unit's armory to make new out-of-the-box 1911s and M16s reliable and 1911 was my first pistol after discharge and felt 7-8 rounds were "good enough" for home defense.

After I started shooting USPSA matches, got married with children, when living in a large metropolitan city where home invasion robberies by multiple armed gang bangers with radios was a daily occurrence, wife even carried two pistols on person in and around the house as we had inmates paroling to a house across the street with police bust on a weekly basis. We had tactical vests with multiple Glocks and ARs in .223 then .300 BLK with like 10+ 15/17/30 round magazines on the vests and felt like several hundred rounds were not "enough" for multiple armed gang banger home invasion and ended up getting 3 guard dogs and I installed 180 feet of welded fence around our property for the dogs to roam free/engage any intruders.

But when we moved to our current retirement location that is small rural coastal town at the end of a private road with about 8 properties on the road, our guard dogs "retired" and now defend the property against gophers and racoons. I still have Glocks and ARs/PCCs close by but six round revolver would be "good enough" for our current lifestyle.

But having lived through urban combat (Parents lived through LA riot where neighbors had to barricade their streets with cars and post armed guards at each end to wave off gang bangers who robbed and burned other streets) and worked as medic in the Army, my affinity is for higher round count ... just because I have become a realist during my lifetime having seen what violent humans are capable of ... and few bullets from any pistol won't stop all determined attacker(s) in their tracks, especially if they are wearing body armor.

I have shot over 700,000 rounds of pistol reloads (I keep track of round count by number of primer boxes used) during close to 30 years (I do not keep track of factory rounds or rifle rounds/reloads) and have trained to point-shoot to where I can hit anything inside the house even with my eyes closed - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...or-her-first-time-today.908729/#post-12369077

But is "six" rounds still enough for defense?

I think that depends on where you live/work/travel/leisure. My parents retired to a rural mountain community and for many years, his .357 revolver was "good enough" but in recent years, sheriff department cutbacks have decreased number of deputies and crime has increased to where the Sheriff has implemented armed citizen patrol program which my parents participated. Now their neighbors regularly practice shooting at their properties along with my parents. So which pistol does he rely on now? Higher capacity Glocks. I guess his 6 round revolver is no longer "good enough" ... but back up to his Glocks.
 
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I pocket carry! I like this type of carry because it is comfortable, works well with my attire, is not noticeable, and allows me to place my hand on my firearm in uncomfortable situations. Three revolvers (5 shots) and a LCPII are my normal choices. I have been considering adding a micro 9 or LCP Max to go up to 10 or 11. Criteria 1 needs to fit my front pocket and of course be reliable.

Same here, and I bet we who comfortably pocket carry have a gun on us far more than those who prefer bigger heavier guns.
 
Same here, and I bet we who comfortably pocket carry have a gun on us far more than those who prefer bigger heavier guns.
I agree, there are a few people that always carry, but I like the ability to have my hand on my handgun in uncomfortable situations and I don'tneed to change my attire for my carry.
 
Same here, and I bet we who comfortably pocket carry have a gun on us far more than those who prefer bigger heavier guns.


I agree, there are a few people that always carry, but I like the ability to have my hand on my handgun in uncomfortable situations and I don'tneed to change my attire for my carry.
I comfortably carry a Glock 17 every day. Carried full sized guns my whole life, and in the same clothes Id be wearing if I wasnt wearing the gun and its never been a big deal.

And Id be willing to bet, I can have it out and going before you can clear your pocket, and I dont have to worry about having my hand trapped there either. The last thing you want, is someone close and giving up the use of a hand.
 
Thats great, but what is it with the hand out of the pocket?

Unless you walk around with your hand in your pocket all the time, and who does, I think you need to be somewhat realistic about things. Whats the speed on a "startle" start?

Not knocking what he was able to do there in the least, and he made a good hit on target, but you need to understand that pocket carry has some liability to it that usually isnt brought up and/or addressed. All you usually hear is, my hand is always on the gun and its fast. What about everything else?
 
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I comfortably carry a Glock 17 every day. Carried full sized guns my whole life, and in the same clothes Id be wearing if I wasnt wearing the gun and its never been a big deal.

So you're wearing an 8" long, two pound Glock with shorts and t-shirt and nobody can see it? Some due to back issues don't want that much weight.

And Id be willing to bet, I can have it out and going before you can clear your pocket, and I dont have to worry about having my hand trapped there either. The last thing you want, is someone close and giving up the use of a hand.

Who says we have to have it out of our pocket to fire?
 
So you're wearing an 8" long, two pound Glock with shorts and t-shirt and nobody can see it? Some due to back issues don't want that much weight.
Yup, easy enough. I dont wear shorts, but I do usually just wear a pair of Carhartt or Dickies, and my normal size tee shirt all simmer, never had any troubles hiding it. And Ive been doing that on a daily basis for over 45 years now, and a couple of the other guns were a little bigger and heavier than my Glocks.

And my back is just fine. Never noticed it was heavy. :thumbup:


Who says we have to have it out of our pocket to fire?
Well, if youre shooting it out of your pants pocket, Id sure like to see that! :p

And Im betting if youre shooting it out of a coat pocket, other than maybe contact distance, you wont be hitting much. And if I'm that close and have something in mind, youre in a real bad spot with your hand in your pocket. ;)
 
I carry what I feel is necessary, and not what someone else thinks should be done according to their superimposed opinion.

So if you do think it's enough, rock on. If not, well that doesn't concern me either. I sometimes roll with a six shot pocket 380 or a seven shot Shield in 9, so it's not much different other than platform type.
 
By all means, do what you "want", just dont let "cant" creep into your head, its such a negative thing, and it seems to be infectious. ;)
 
"I pocket carry! I like this type of carry because it is comfortable, works well with my attire, is not noticeable, and allows me to place my hand on my firearm in uncomfortable situations. Three revolvers (5 shots) and a LCPII are my normal choices. I have been considering adding a micro 9 or LCP Max to go up to 10 or 11. Criteria 1 needs to fit my front pocket and of course be reliable."

I guess my above comment means I'm unarmed. Anyone that carries a full size service has my respect. I will not switch to full-time OWB/IWB because my activities won't allow that.
 
Yes. Actually one is most likely 'enough' if employed properly.

Yes, I have read of instances where more rounds are needed. Upon more investigation, more rounds were not required, more HITS were required. Actually, more PROPER hits were required.
And yes, there are those instances where the villain is 'anesthetized' by alcohol or pharmaceuticals, or by something emotional generally lumped as 'battle rage' wherein immediate stoppage is difficult barring the use of a fire axe. However those instances are less likely than merely a greedy or homicidal attacker.
What remains is the concept of 'stopping power'. "Stopping power' is more a likelihood than a certainty, and is normally caused by two elements: Sufficient force and proper application of force. Some rounds simply do not have the level of force needed. Nor is the force needed kinetic energy. Proper application (in this sort of case, a 'hit' on a major nerve center) is more important than commonly realized.

I normally carry a Colt Model O variant. A Commander in .45 ACP. It carries a magazine of seven rounds (some eight) and the chambered round. I do not load it 'down', carrying only a total of six rounds. I carry an extra magazine mostly from habit and 'just cause'. I am not averse to more than less rounds, but find too many people who carry sidearms tend to replace competence with more shots.
 
Nor is the force needed kinetic energy.
Correct. Force is not the same thing as kinetic energy.

Force is equal to the change in kinetic energy over the distance that the change occurs.
 
"I pocket carry! I like this type of carry because it is comfortable, works well with my attire, is not noticeable, and allows me to place my hand on my firearm in uncomfortable situations. Three revolvers (5 shots) and a LCPII are my normal choices. I have been considering adding a micro 9 or LCP Max to go up to 10 or 11. Criteria 1 needs to fit my front pocket and of course be reliable."

I guess my above comment means I'm unarmed. Anyone that carries a full size service has my respect. I will not switch to full-time OWB/IWB because my activities won't allow that.
My activities don't allow for it either. That's just the way it is, meaning can't because it WON'T work that only the obtuse will be slow to deliberately not wanting to understand based on their own ignorance of how others live that's the opposite of themselves.
 
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