1911 break in period

drband said:
Bullet profile is the determining factor-- not just OAL!
Click to expand...

Yes and a good example of bullet profile is with JHP, especially the angular bullets. You cannot have as long a round in JHP as you can in round nose because the bullet end of the magazine is rounded. A rough illustration I put together might help. I randomly drew in a couple of hypothetical HP bullet shapes on this image from
https://loaddata.com/Cartridge/45-ACP-45-Auto-Using-Nosler-Bullets/7437
So if a JHP were max length it would bind at the corners (edges of the ash tray) against the rounded side of the magazine.
upload_2022-11-20_15-13-20.png
 
Reportedly much of the original "rifle break-in period" caution began with a guy who sold rifle barrels years ago. He was said to have been the first person to include written descriptions about the procedure with each product he shipped.

He realized that the more ammo people tested in his barrels, over time the more he could sell.
I can't remember his name or location (or where I read this), however this seemed very plausible.

Could the general idea, or a Variation of it, have spread to some segments of the handgun industry? As with everything else, so many "adult decisions" to be dealt with....:)
 
Skylerbone said:
When Alchemy finished tearing apart a second 1911 for me it was nearly devoid of any original parts, with only the frame, slide, GS, and MSH left. Yes springs, guide rod, plunger tube, detents, magazine catch, and FCG were all gutted.
Click to expand...
Not surprised. I worked alongside Rob when he was at Les's shop , before he started Alchemy. He is as fine a craftsman as I have ever seen.
 
Slamfire said:
You have to run them enough to determine the reliability of the pistol.

When this was new and unmodified, cartridges would jam on the breech face. Problem was a burr around the firing pin hole. I removed that burr with something and that problem was fixed. I am a believer in having a polished 1911 breechface. It does not hurt to take a brass bristle brush and scrub off Parkerizing, etc, that might be on the breechface of a new 1911.

View attachment 1116135

This RIA ejected magazines when new


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the magazine latch was either insufficient, or as I now suspect, held the magazine too high. As the slide went forward, the magazine was ejected down! RIA sent me a replacement, this was the old one


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Magazines sat in the pistol very low with the replacement mag release. Lots of clearance between bottom of magazine and bottom of grip. Also, I could feel a very distinct bump, bump, as cartridges fed into the chamber. If I reloaded the bullet several times, the bullet was shoved deeper into the case each loading. The bump, bump had to be the bullet hitting the feed ramp, and finally chambering.


Then one day, this happened. The round fired, the magazine and all its contents ejected, and I had a case with a blown case head in the pistol.


View attachment 1116138


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I did not know if it was my reloads or not. I chronographed and targeted the load, and it did not seem excessive. This is the load. A 230 FMJ leaving a five inch barrel at 805 fps.



View attachment 1116140


The pistol, once I racked the slide, the slide moved freely back and forth. My beautiful replacement coco bolo grips were cracked. The magazine base spring disappeared, and something hit my chin and caused a bruise, something hit the roof over the firing line. Gas release pushed the bullets into unfired rounds in the magazine. Since I had flying springs, bullets, I am glad I always wear glasses! Could have gotten something in the eyeballs. . Something that really helped me was the fact the bottom of the magazine was a piece of plastic and blew out easily. Quick gas release is important to keep pressures from building. If pressure builds, things can get worse. I might not have just cracked my cocobolo grips, but had them blown into my hand.


I field stripped the RIA, wiped everything out, and re-oiled. The slide racked, the hammer fell, the pistol was operable. This pistol is made of 4140 steel, and I am certain had I been firing some WW1 relic, made from un heat treated plain carbon steels, I could have ended up with a bulged or bent slide. But this thing, all I have had to do, is field strip, wipe out the powder residue, reassemble, and it functions. Today's guns are built much better.


After wiping and reassembly, I loaded up a different batch of ammunition and shot that. Everything worked. Because I was uncertain about the ammunition, it took time for me to shoot the kaboom batch up, but when I did, it all went bang. Because I was concerned that pressure might be high, or there was something wrong with the powder, I cut my loads by 3 tenths of a grain and shot an ammunition can of it. This reduced load has to be a mild load. I was very careful about my reloading procedures. This load went 715 fps.


View attachment 1116141


And what do you know, before the ammunition can of the reduced load was empty, I got a high pressure round. The primer flowed back into the firing pin hole, the case stayed on the bolt face, and the slide was jammed back.

That was when I decided that while bad reloads were still a could be, bullet set back was something to worry about, and fix. Due to case weight variations, it is fruitless to attempt to weigh pistol rounds. Loaded rounds vary more by four grains, so you are never going to catch a double charge, or an excessive charge, by weight. Fed the same bullet several times and the cartridge OAL lessens. I consider that risky. I purchased an EGW higher magazine catch and installed it. I still get bullet set back, but overall, not enough to cause a high pressure incident. I still feel a bump-bump as the round feeds, but it is less pronounced than before. Keeping my fingers crossed, but I don’t shoot this pistol as much as I used to.

I am convinced the cartridge hitting the feed ramp/barrel and seating the bullet deep in the case caused my case head blowout. I am of the opinion that a good hard hit deep seated a bullet and the reduced case volume caused pressures to skyrocket. Since then, I am back to the full load of 230 FMJ with 7.8 grains AA#5 and shooting it in other 1911’s. The kaboom had nothing to do with powder deterioration or age. The powder is 1990’s AA#5 and I am making an effort to shoot up the keg as age wise, it is long in the tooth.

This pistol also has a very hard recoil, somewhere in the barrel lugh/slide stop geometry, the barrel lug parts from the slide stop early in the pressure drop, which causes high slide speeds at unlock. This is based on the analysis in this thread:

Old School Barrel Fit vs Modern Fit
https://www.bullseyeforum.net/t18500-old-school-barrel-fit-vs-modern-fit

My RIA eats shock buffs like candy. I believe this also translates to a high slide return. And, this pistol is very hard to shoot well. I have installed very powerful recoil springs, the strongest mainspring I could find, and at the suggestion of @Steve in Allentown installed a flat bottomed slide stop. The flat bottomed slide stop needed to be fitted, and I could tell the extractor was clocking due to belling in the slide stop notch on the extractor. I don’t think the extractor is clocking now, and the cartridge ejection pattern is more consistent, and the brass does not go as far with a heavy recoil spring, heavy mainspring, and the flat bottomed slide stop.

Rock Island states FMJ only, and they are right, the barrel fouls excessively with lead bullets. I have gone through two bullet grit polishing sessions, and probably a 1000 rounds plus of FMJ, and the tube is brighter. There is still jacket fouling which takes JB Bore past to remove. If I shoot lead, it leads excessively, but less than before.

In comparison, these other bargain basement brands 1911’s have been trouble free and fun to shoot.

View attachment 1116142

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Every bargain basement 1911 was the “best of three” for fit and trigger. I brought an oil bottle in for the Charles Daly and the Tisas and oiled the slide rails, hammer hooks, end of muzzle, and barrel hood and locking lugs. I racked the slide enough to get a feel of the smoothness, pressed on the muzzle and barrel bushing, back of the barrel with the hammer forward, when the slide is in battery, tried to rock the slide on the frame, and of course tested the hammer pull. I am impressed with the fit of these, they are better than the series 70 and 80 Colt NM pistols from the 1990’s and earlier. These have the tightness that it used to take a gunsmith to achieve by peening the slide rails. And filing barrel bushings to fit, cutting the barrel lug to a perfect fit, etc. Slide stops are all loose but I can fix that. Rounds are ejected in a 360 sphere, some bounding off me when I shoot. Takes forever to find my brass.

My Les Baer wadcutter will eject all cases into my shooting net. A high end 1911 will spoil you.



View attachment 1116149



I have been very pleasantly pleased in the reliability of the Tisas, Charles Daly, and ATI with my assortment of crap GI magazines, bargain basement new magazines, etc. My good magazines are being used in pistol matches. I am surprised how well my KCI bargain basement magazines are doing, I hope they keep on running.


A new owner of a 1911 should shoot the thing enough with the magazines he plans to carry, until he is convinced of the reliability and accuracy of the thing. New 1911’s can be finicky about magazines and bullets, and that has to be determined at the firing range. The Charles Daly and my Remington R1 1911 do not like my 230 LRN loads. I loaded these cartridges to 1.250 OAL but the slides won't close fully. Pushed the bullets in to 1.245" and the same cartridges feed like a champ in these pistols. These are things you have to find by shooting.
Click to expand...
A most excellent, and informative post. Thank you for taking the time to share this. Appreciate you, sir
 
Slamfire said:
Also, I could feel a very distinct bump, bump, as cartridges fed into the chamber. If I reloaded the bullet several times, the bullet was shoved deeper into the case each loading. The bump, bump had to be the bullet hitting the feed ramp, and finally chambering.

. . . bullet set back was something to worry about, and fix.

I purchased an EGW higher magazine catch and installed it. I still get bullet set back, but overall, not enough to cause a high pressure incident. I still feel a bump-bump as the round feeds, but it is less pronounced than before.

I am convinced the cartridge hitting the feed ramp/barrel and seating the bullet deep in the case caused my case head blowout.

Rounds are ejected in a 360 sphere, some bounding off me when I shoot. Takes forever to find my brass.
Click to expand...
Mulling all of these symptoms over in my head I can only suggest these few things.

I would take an accurate measurement of the angle of the frame feed ramp. It is supposed to be 31.5 degrees with no +/- variance.

I would check to be sure there is a minimum gap of .030" between the top of the frame ramp and the bottom of the barrel ramp.

There are other dimensions that could also be checked e.g. barrel ramp angle, barrel hood to first lug gap, etc but those listed are the first ones to check.

Check the barrel's bottom lugs (feet) for evidence of barrel bump.

I would replace the mag spring in that magazine in your picture.

Getting bonked in the noggin by hot brass is a symptom of a poorly fit extractor. You can try adding more tension to it to see if that solves the problem. However there's a lot more to a well fit extractor than tension so if that doesn't work, I'f fit a new EGW GI extractor using this thread as a guide: https://www.1911forum.com/threads/steve-in-allentown-extractor-fitting.829865/
 
Steve in Allentown said:
Mulling all of these symptoms over in my head I can only suggest these few things.

I would take an accurate measurement of the angle of the frame feed ramp. It is supposed to be 31.5 degrees with no +/- variance.

I would check to be sure there is a minimum gap of .030" between the top of the frame ramp and the bottom of the barrel ramp.

There are other dimensions that could also be checked e.g. barrel ramp angle, barrel hood to first lug gap, etc but those listed are the first ones to check.

Check the barrel's bottom lugs (feet) for evidence of barrel bump.

I would replace the mag spring in that magazine in your picture.

Getting bonked in the noggin by hot brass is a symptom of a poorly fit extractor. You can try adding more tension to it to see if that solves the problem. However there's a lot more to a well fit extractor than tension so if that doesn't work, I'f fit a new EGW GI extractor using this thread as a guide: https://www.1911forum.com/threads/steve-in-allentown-extractor-fitting.829865/
Click to expand...

Thanks, will puzzle over this.

Before the case head rupture, I sent the pistol back to Rock Island because the pistol shot so low. They brought the point of aim up. You would think they would have checked out the mechanism, but, maybe not. If I send the thing back to them, I may not receive a pistol that shoots to point of aim, nor have one that is as tight and with a good trigger pull. This was a best out of three selection from Gander Mountain. And of course, I will loose my fitted slide stop and extra heavy mainspring.
 
Slamfire said:
If I send the thing back to them, [they may well screw things up]
Click to expand...
Believe me, I get it. I've heard horror stories.

I'd still be inclined to check things out if for no other reason than to know if there is a bad dimension somewhere that is causing the problems. Barrel bump is easy to check. Here's an obvious example.
LbzepYl.jpg

Here's a less obvious example.
3Vo7yQF.jpg

Here's a horrible example.
3JRmvLK.jpg ​

If you see any barrel bump, the fix is simple. File down the bump, "paint" the area with a blue Sharpie or Dykem, then reassemble the pistol and rack the slide a couple of dozen times. Pull the barrel out and check for contact between the lugs and the slide stop. Repeat this operation until there is no contact, You want the slide stop to make contact on the flat of the lugs but you do not want contact at the transition between the rounded portion of the lugs and the flat.
 
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You get your new 1911, go to the range and fire 100 rds of various types of ammunition and it seems to run flawlessly. Is it broken-in yet? Probably not. Most people are NOT testing their pistols under adverse conditions, so how would they even know if their pistol is actually reliable?

Did you ease the slide closed to see if it would still chamber a round and return to battery? The metal finishes inside some pistols are rough enough that they create needless friction that may prevent your pistol from operating reliably under adverse conditions, right out of the box. The pistol may need to be cycled many times in order for the metal to metal surfaces to wear off the high spots and operate smoothly. How much break-in is necessary will depend upon how well finished the pistol is.

I'm sure that someone is going to say that you are supposed to release the slide quickly so that the inertia will help return the slide to battery. But that is not an ADVERSE condition. Firing enough rounds will likely smooth out the rough spots eventually. But until this happens your pistol may not be operating as well as it could.

Are the metal to metal contact points inside your pistol smooth enough that your pistol will operate reliably WITHOUT lubrication? The better the contact points are polished the less need they will have for lubrication. Well polished steel parts may not even need lubrication per se. They may only need a lubricant for it's corrosion protection or to make it more difficult for gunpowder residue to adhere to the parts.

Can you easily retract the slide over a magazine loaded to capacity? Have you actually tested this? A rough stripper rail can make it very difficult to retract the slide by hand, even though the slide may still cycle when fired under ideal range conditions. But will it still cycle if you accidentally ride the slide with your thumb, or if any contamination gets into the slide rails???

A rough finish on internal contact points will reduce your margin of reliability under adverse conditions. Either manually polishing these contact points, or firing enough rounds to smooth out the contact points will help your pistol operate at maximum reliability under all conditions.

If I buy a $200 gun it's a safe bet that will will need a substantial break-in period. If I buy a $5,000 gun I would hope that it was finished well enough that it didn't actually need any break-in. But that it still likely wishful thinking.

But what is the purpose of your pistol? If it's only going to be used at the gun range, then reliability isn't a big issue. But if it is a self defense pistol, I would certainly want the pistol to be completely broken in before I carried it.

Barrel break-in is a subject of it's own.
 
Ignition Override said:
Reportedly much of the original "rifle break-in period" caution began with a guy who sold rifle barrels years ago. He was said to have been the first person to include written descriptions about the procedure with each product he shipped.

He realized that the more ammo people tested in his barrels, over time the more he could sell.
I can't remember his name or location (or where I read this), however this seemed very plausible.

Could the general idea, or a Variation of it, have spread to some segments of the handgun industry? As with everything else, so many "adult decisions" to be dealt with....:)
Click to expand...

Well that is what Gale McMillan SAYS is the motive of barrel makers less pure of heart than him.
 
I have been very pleasantly pleased in the reliability of the Tisas, Charles Daly, and ATI with my assortment of crap GI magazines, bargain basement new magazines, etc. My good magazines are being used in pistol matches. I am surprised how well my KCI bargain basement magazines are doing, I hope they keep on running.

***********************************
Thank You Sir for this report. Thinking of a Charles Daly 1911 for my next acquisition.

***********************************
A new owner of a 1911 should shoot the thing enough with the magazines he plans to carry, until he is convinced of the reliability and accuracy of the thing. New 1911’s can be finicky about magazines and bullets, and that has to be determined at the firing range. The Charles Daly and my Remington R1 1911 do not like my 230 LRN loads. I loaded these cartridges to 1.250 OAL but the slides won't close fully. Pushed the bullets in to 1.245" and the same cartridges feed like a champ in these pistols. These are things you have to find by shooting.

**********************************
Concur. Believe this is true of any new acquisition and caliber. If you're going to trust the weapon for defense you need to make Real Sure it works reliably. Range Time....
I have a SIG 238 that took a while to find something it liked in ball and JHP.

Again - Thank You for this report.
 
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