some misconceptions about 357 and 44 in carbines

trekker73 said:

On such threads there always seem to be a fella or two who quotes the handgun velocities for the pistol carts, not the carbine velocities.

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That's not really a big revelation for those of us who shoot pistol-cartridge rifles. The caveat to that is, of course, powder choice. In my .41MAG Marlin, my standard load of Unique doesn't really pick a whole lot up when compared to the same load in a pistol, but you switch to a slower powder, and that's when the pistol cartridge in the rifle combination really shines.

Where the pistol cartridges (and, obviously, bullets...) start to loose their appeal, is against rifle bullets with a better BC than a relatively fat cross-section and dirty handgun bullet.

For deer sized game, I'd take a 30-30 loaded with 170NP's over my 44 loaded with hard cast EVERY time!

Your millage may vary.

DM

The short fat pistol bullets shed velocity and energy rapidly.

A .357 carbine might show initial good numbers on paper, but is a sorry replacement for a proper .30-30 at any range above bow distance. A .44 magnum carbine is considerably better.

When they make a 30-30 that is as light and handy as a 16 inch M92 call me back. I have no doubt a 30-30 is more capable than 357 or 44 in a carbine but the pistol caliber carbine handles very different and their are times where that is more important. It also shares ammo with your handgun of choice.

I own a M92 in 44 Mag. I do not own a 30-30.

The 44 mag bullets certainly do shed velocity quickly but this is of little consequence other than for trajectory and wind drift. A .429 diameter bullet does not rely on expansion in order to cause wounding and produce a blood trail, as evidenced by many people regularly taking very large and dangerous game with hard cast bullets at low velocities in 44 mag handguns. In my experience I think in .357 caliber and below, expansion is highly preferable on deer size game, but it is not really needed with a large meplat .400" or larger bullet.

In my opinion, 357 carbine and 30-30 are pretty comparable at short range, like 75 yards or so, and then the 30/30 has the legs to leave it in the dust given a good BC bullet like the Hornady FTX. A 44 magnum on the other hand even from a revolver has proven to be suitable for larger game than a 30/30, so I think a 44 mag rifle will carry that advantage out past the range at which I would be comfortable to shoot either of them.

So many folks in the gun community when they're in a this is better than that, fall into a rut of assuming an artificial handicap for that, while this gets full benefit of their genius. Cherry Picking and moving goalposts becomes the norm.

Mavracer,

I believe the only way to reduce the problem is by setting the goalposts AND parameters first. There will still be cherry picking, artificially handicapping etc.
So instead of "what is the best pistol caliber" or "which is better the w, x, y, or z" change it to "what is the best pistol caliber for deer up to 100yrds in an open field using off the shelf common rounds" or "which x, y, or z caliber, is better for reloading and plinking at 500yrds in a stock tikka platform"

As stated before there will be a lot of bending and twisting numbers to justify something BUT there should be a higher consensus of which is "better".

All of this said, usually once you get to rounds that are comparable and competent for a certain task, it matters less on the bullet and more on the shooter.

JCooperfan1911 said:

The short fat pistol bullets shed velocity and energy rapidly.

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It’s surprising for many folks, the blunt nosed round nose or flat point bullets common to .30-30 actually have lower ballistic coefficients than some revolver bullets. Getting 44 or 45 cal revolver bullets up over .2G1 is pretty easy, whereas a lot of 30 cal bullets used in 30-30 will still be south of .2G1.

Any black powder hunter can tell you that a big diameter projectile doesn't need that much velocity to kill deer. Nothing wrong with 44 mag out of a rifle. 357 should be OK inside 100 yards with the right bullet (JSP) and powder (Lil Gun for best velocity), but you are probably at the ragged edge chasing big deer with this cartridge.

I think the vast majority of misconceptions are that energy amounts to a hill of beans. That higher energy figures automatically make rifle cartridges more capable on game than pistol cartridges. The .30-30 make shoot flatter but when the game is a ton of muscle, bone and horn, I'd much rather have a properly loaded .44 than any .30cal rifle.

From similar barrels with identical bullet weights and BCs, and loadings with comparable chamber pressures, the difference between the .30 Carbine and .357 Magnum is probably insignificant. The blunt bullets used in tubular magazines are a handicap for the .357, but you could go with a rounded profile in a Ruger 77/357. The .30 Carbine has the edge in SAAMI maximum pressure at 40K PSI vs. 35K, but I think they have more in common than they differ.

One advantage to .357 in a manually-operated carbine is that you don't have the functional limitations on handloading that apply to an autoloader. On the other hand, an autoloader is a boon if you're facing a human wave or a mob at close range.

Paul Harrell did some comparison shooting with an M1 Carbine and Henry .357 in this video:



Neither is near the same class as the 30-30, especially with pointed LEVERevolution bullets.

OK, if I thought I could hit an animal in a vital spot with my Marlin .357 I would probably take the shot. Since I have no confidence in the carbine's accuracy or my skills with it it's a moot point. If it were allowed I would take the shot with my "universal" 30 carbine, then again within 50 yards if it were legal I would take the shot with my 32-20 Winchester. As for 30-30... I leave that to a certain unnamed idiot that shall remain my brother who can make miracle shots with an ancient Glenfield rifle that Dad gave him when he was still in his teens. However, every year he brings home his limit and fills his dep permits.

My 77/357 is a 2" at 100 yard gun all day long. The weird thing about it is that it is more consistent than any of my bottleneck deer rifles. It NEVER has a flier, I can't remember one in several hundred shots at targets. It's really easy to shoot which might have something to do with it.

I have taken 3 deer with it. Only 1 ran but that was a bad shot (hit her windpipe at 90 yards in the rain). She only ran about 150 yards though. The other 2 deer I shot with it had the bullet (158gr XTP) on the far side hide, nicely expanded. The round is over 1/2" after expansion so I could see an argument where 357 is more effective than 30-30 or 30 Carbine if you take terminal ballistics into account.

My 1894 in 44 Mag is a real killer! I shot a large buck head on at the base of the neck once and found the bullet in the rump of the deer. It went through like 4 feet of deer!

True, for 200 yard shots I would much rather have a 30-30, but in a lever gun it's only marginally better than 44 Mag at that point. I would MUCH rather have a bolt action 30-06 or 6.5 Creedmoor for that shot!

The buck with my 44 1894. He was estimated at 10 years old:

I'm surprised that its even being questioned that 357 magnum is more powerful than 30 carbine.

The 30 carbine would fit right in with the magnum family of cartridges. It is the exact same case length as 357 magnum, 41 magnum, and 44 magnum, and the powder that was developed for it, H110, is the iconic magnum pistol powder loaded in all 4 of these.

Shown below 30 carbine on the left, 41 magnum, 44 magnum, and 357 magnum

Next the myth the pistol cartridges are 80-100 yard capable only. I'd say either are 140-150 yards capable matched to appropriate game. The proviso is if you have the optics and an accurate enough load.

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I've often stated that 44 mag was best at around 75ish yards and every bit the equal of 30-30. Beyond that 30-30 was the better choice. My recommendation is based on my experience shooting 44 mag and 30-30 rifles and their accuracy potential. Both will probably kill deer size game out to 200 yards or maybe farther, but the odds of wounding and non-recovery are just too great for me to recommend anything much beyond 100-150 yards with either. Your last sentence seems to agree with my assessment.

Loaded with 180-200 gr bullets a 357 mag is a legitimate big game killer. And while it could be done with lighter bullets, especially deer, that is dropping below a threshold I'm comfortable with. I wouldn't choose a 357 mag to hunt with, but if that was all I had I'd use it. 44 mag or 30-30 are better options IMO.

To be honest I've never considered 30 Carbine one way or the other. Can you get bullets heavier than 110 gr? If so, then maybe. But a 110 gr 30 caliber bullet won't give the penetration I'd want.

The chart below was taken from Buffalo Bore's site for their .357 ammo. Some serious velocity from a carbine barrel.

➤ 18.5-inch Marlin 1894

a. Item 19A/20-180gr. Hard Cast = 1851 fps
b. Item 19B/20-170gr. JHC = 1860 fps
c. Item 19C/20-158gr. Jacketed Hollow Point = 2153 fps
d. Item 19D/20-125gr. Jacketed Hollow Point = 2298 fps

I came late to deer hunting; it wasn't a family tradition. I heard endlessly from experienced guys about blood trails and wounded deer tracking.
For a hunting rifle, I picked a Marlin 16" 1894 in .44 mag; with H110 handloads, it picked up 200'sec to the same rounds in a 6" 629. Part of the motivation was being able to easily reload my ammo, compared to bottlenecks.
Most of my hunting was in brushy Greene County, PA, where you only get a long shot on a railroad or a power line. Took a bunch of deer there over 25 years there; no trophies, but nice, solid deer.
To the best of my recollection, never had to track a one of them. Shots were less than 80 yards, and the deer was either DRT, or made a few steps before piling up in a heap. Even took 3 doe with that 629, and there was no tracking involved.
Likely the last deer, ever, was with a .45 Colt out of a carbine, 1174'sec/255 RNFP. He went down like he was poleaxed.
Never dispute that true rifle cartridges are better beyond 100 yards, but I cannot imagine anything performing better at shorter woods ranges than those .44s.
Moon

While a 30-30 is a quite capable rifle, the .44 mag or .45 colt loaded sufficiently with a wide meplat projectile of 270 and preferably above grain bullet is superior in every way out to distances where bullet drop becomes a factor. This is opinion is concerning use of a carbine not a handgun

If you need big blood trails to track you aren't shooting them in the right place and you need to learn how to track. But stuff happens I guess.

trekker73 said:

Next the myth the pistol cartridges are 80-100 yard capable only. I'd say either are 140-150 yards capable matched to appropriate game. The proviso is if you have the optics and an accurate enough load.

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I have had several 44 Magnum carbines. Neither were what people would call an accurate gun, but for that 150 max range, they didn't need to be any better than 3-4 MOA for deer. Didn't take much for optics to steer them there.

Through much of the deep south, the vegetation is impenetrably thick in places. If you take a shot at last legal light, you'll want as much blood as possible to track them through this mess.

I tend to think that in the real world they’re very similar. That is, .30 carbine, .30-30, .357, .44 mag. And I’ll throw in 44-40, 7.62x39, too.

1. The limiting factor on all of them is going to be the firearms they’re commonly chambered for: that is, light and medium lever actions, light semi-autos. Not the kind of guns that lend themselves to a scope.

2. With modern notions of what constitutes an “ethical” kill, or an ethical shot, an iron-sights rifle almost always becomes a bad idea beyond 150 yards, if not shorter.

3. .30-30 is theoretically flatter shooting at longer range especially with leverevolution type bullets, compared to the flat meplat cast bullets a lot of guys use in revolver hunting cartridges.

4. I think every single one of them can take most game at 100 yards and under, no problem. .357, .30 carbine, 44-40 may start to run out of steam somewhat past this point. Bullet drop or shot placement start to become critical.

5. In the real world it seems shots are either really close or relatively far away. So these cartridges either work pretty well, or they don’t.

6. I’d personally give 44 mag the nod as the most powerful/versatile of the lot, but if I wanted to explore its potential/upward limitations I’d just use a bolt action in .308 with a good scope.

DM~ said:

For deer sized game, I'd take a 30-30 loaded with 170NP's over my 44 loaded with hard cast EVERY time!

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I wouldn't disagree with that, I've not been overly impressed with the performance of hard cast on lighter skinned game. I'd rather use a 300gr XTP than 170gr partition for toothy game, even though I'm quite sure I could make either work.