Teacup Grip

Styx said:

What's the origins of the teacup grip that I see in movies and by some foreigners? Was it the standard at one time back in the day or something?

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It was the well known standard. Lol. Well written about, at least up through skeeter skelton. Maybe later

Not just Hollywood screwing up guns and gun play. Like usual. It was actually taught

Small revolvers don't leave enough room for a proper 2 handed grip. The teacup grip is a true support hand, meaning that it's a one handed grip with the support hand adding some stability. The "support hand" has lost its meaning in modern 2 handed handgun training where both hands are used in conjunction which allows both faster and precise follow up shots, a relatively modern technique that most shooters are familiar with now.
I have a J frame revolver that I recently upgraded the grips to allow the 2 handed "combat grip". Otherwise, one handed or tea cup was the way to train. Some people who learn to shoot revolvers first will adopt the teacup grip with a semi auto. Some people will say it's wrong, but I don't have a problem with it if they are a new shooter because, technically, they are using the gun one handed, which is more than likely the only way one will use the gun in a SD scenario. I believe the 2 handed grip should be learned after one handed shooting.

Gunfu_Blaster.45 said:

Small revolvers don't leave enough room for a proper 2 handed grip. The teacup grip is a true support hand, meaning that it's a one handed grip with the support hand adding some stability. The "support hand" has lost its meaning in modern 2 handed handgun training where both hands are used in conjunction which allows both faster and precise follow up shots, a relatively modern technique that most shooters are familiar with now.
I have a J frame revolver that I recently upgraded the grips to allow the 2 handed "combat grip". Otherwise, one handed or tea cup was the way to train. Some people who learn to shoot revolvers first will adopt the teacup grip with a semi auto. Some people will say it's wrong, but I don't have a problem with it if they are a new shooter because, technically, they are using the gun one handed, which is more than likely the only way one will use the gun in a SD scenario. I believe the 2 handed grip should be learned after one handed shooting.

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I'm a handgun hunter and do a decent bit of one handed shooting, but I don't know about "more than likely the only way one will use a gun in an SD scenario". Plenty of SD videos online show 2 handed shooting.

The teacup was an alternative to the support hand on wrist grip. Check out the Dirty Harry movies.

They also taught 1 handed shooting, 1 hand on the waist and body turned to the side prior to WWII. That evolved into the deep crouch FBI shooting style, which was popularized post WWII. As trainers taught others, it popularized things.

Movies also played a role, as you may have had someone watch it and think that's cool or proper - ie the gangster thug sideways hold or the John Wick wannabes nowadays, though I do think Keanu Reeves is legit with both guns and hand to hand.

I think these body mechanics in general were felt to be effective until competitions and gunfights proved otherwise. We probably think things are optimized as is, but in our ignorance there could be some grip or method that is more effective. Think about how Leatham or Miculek has influenced run and gun games and how this bled into modern day tactics.

That's what I was taught back in the 80's when I got into IPSC. If I'm not mistaken, it's more or less derived from revolver shooting when you have to keep your hand clear of the gases blown from the gap between the cylinder and the barrel. It also seems to speed up magazine change in automatics ever so slightly, as your hand is already there to grab the released mag. As far as accuracy is concerned, I don't feel it's quite up to par with other grip alternatives.

Styx said:

movies and by some foreigners

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People who need to go to the gym and get stronger so they can hold a pistol correctly lol.

No input on the teacup grip, but it is impressive to look at some of the old scores pistol shooters put up with S&W .32 or .38 revolvers 100 years ago or so doing several things which are thought to be horribly wrong now.

I still use it however I lock my left thumb over my right thumb.Works for me in taming muzzle rise.

Styx said:

Like?

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Most of them are things I have seen in print so don't have handy.

That said, just a quick google search of 1900 shows this man shooting a 503 at 50m with an 1882 Swiss Ordinance revolver.
Shooting at the 1900 Summer Olympics – Men's 50 metre pistol - Wikipedia

Bullseye shooters today still shoot at 25 and 50yds with one hand and put up scores that many people couldn't beat using 2 hands.

My sister who was taught how to shoot pistols in the Seventies by our dad, as was I, still shoots that way. I have gone on to other methods.

hq said:

It also seems to speed up magazine change in automatics ever so slightly, as your hand is already there to grab the released mag.

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When I hastily reload an automatic, I let the empty magazine drop free as I reach for the fresh one.
If I am not under time pressure, why change my shooting grip for the dim distant future when I might want to change magazines?
Why "grab the released mag." unless doing an IDPA Tac Load?

Jim Watson said:

Why "grab the released mag." unless doing an IDPA Tac Load?

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Possibly because at the time a dropped empty mag ment DQ for the stage.

The OLD IDPA rule was that you might not drop a magazine if there were still a round in the chamber.
The PRESENT IDPA rule is that you may drop an empty magazine with a round left in the chamber. I call that the Cooper Reload because the Good Colonel advocated it.

The penalty under either rule is a 3 second Procedural Error.
IDPA does not have a Stage DQ.

Are you shooting a different sport with that provision?

I just noticed you are not local, I see that IDPA started in Finland in 2011, but I do not know the present status. Not a lot of action on the Facebook group.

hq said:

That's what I was taught back in the 80's when I got into IPSC. If I'm not mistaken.

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Wow. That would have been a really strange period for someone to teach the Teacup grip. That era was all about two hands wrapped around the grip and a Weaver stance.

Jim Watson said:

I just noticed you are not local, I see that IDPA started in Finland in 2011, but I do not know the present status. Not a lot of action on the Facebook group.

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IPSC rules were largely subject to interpretation in local competitions around the world until late 80's. Dropped magazine rule was pretty common so you learned to hold on to yours.

As far as IDPA is concerned, 2011 is only when it was "officially" adopted by Finnish Shooting Sports Federation - an entity that has harmed gun ownership in Finland more than any other single openly non-anti-gun organization in history. Their premise is that only their club members should be able to own guns at all. IDPA was very much alive and well long before that (mainly because FSSF adopted IPSC in the 90's and a lot of people told them to stuff it), it has only gone downhill after FSSF took it over too.

I was a representative for NRA and, in some instances, WFSA in some instances and FSSF people in the same conferences and meetings have been insufferable, largely relying on their large, later government-mandated (!) member base. Their claim of IDPA "starting" in 2011 is preposterous.

Teacup is derivative of static precision rifle shooting with a bladed stance, supporting the firearm with the support arm elbow straight down and typically impinging upon the hip for support. Shooting a pistol this way, the support arm becomes a shelf upon which the firing hand rests - hence teacup on a saucer. This was a relatively productive stance used for static precision competition on square ranges for a long time. The split Weaver Stance incorporated this tea-cup and saucer hold for combat/LE and defensive applications, retaining the bladed stance to present as thin of target as possible with the supporting near arm partially shielding the vitals.

The advent of body armor and the realization that the heavily bladed stance is tactically disadvantaged for movement and visibility promoted a more forward pointing hip and chest orientation, and lead to the isosceles grip and more even stance we teach today.

Understanding the application of the teacup and saucer technique isn’t a bad thing. Training regularly for defensive or offensive application with the teacup and saucer technique as primary and singular technique is a bad thing.

Without question, teacup brings a significant disadvantage to recoil management and recovery, BARELY improved over single hand shooting. Its advantage is precision, with the disadvantage of limited mobility and poor recoil management.

But certain specific applications dictate specific adaptations. Boxers, Muay Thai kick boxers, wrestlers, and mma fighters all nearly squarely face their opponents, whereas TKD and Karate point fighters are nearly fully bladed to one another and opponents’ hips and chests are nearly facing opposite directions, perpendicular to their line of fight. Shooting a 2 handed precision game, a heavily bladed position and corresponding teacup support position might be an advantage, for any movement game, a more squared position is advantaged, whereas for one handed precision games, the OPPOSITE bladed stance is typically advantaged… tools for tasks…

But for the handgun generalist, shooting 2 handed, teacup and saucer is a novelty, not a method.

I didn't get into IPSC until the 1980s and we sure didn't have any tribal rules about magazine management.

I was shooting PPC prior to that, one of the few precision shoots allowing two hands, and I wasn't in a teacup then, either.

Gunfu_Blaster.45 said:

Small revolvers don't leave enough room for a proper 2 handed grip.

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Unless maybe you have overly large hands, thats not really the case. I have fairly large hands, and once I started shooting "thumbs forward" with my autos, it transitioned right into my revolvers as well, and I shoot them that way with no issues, and that includes my J frames.

The only time I did have the gun tell me to pay closer attention, was with my Chaippa Rhino, with its upside down mounted barrel and little gas port down low in the frame. And that only took one "little" nudge too. Whiskey Tango Foxtrot was that!

Grips are like stances, you learn them as they come on and take advantage of what works best for you. Old isnt necessarily bad, and new isnt necessarily good, but using what works best for you is where its at. Having the knowledge and experience with all of them allows you to be more flexible and versatile though.

Jim Watson said:

I didn't get into IPSC until the 1980s and we sure didn't have any tribal rules about magazine management.

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Obviously, but you weren't on the other side of the world compared to where unified rules were made and may or may have not trickled down elsewhere. You probably didn't have a "mad minute" in the end of every competition either, where targets were blasted with everything, including machine guns (also) used in what was a local adaptation of IPSC at the time. Ah, the good old days...

I do occasionally shoot a couple of local rules matches. One is close enough to IDPA that I need not make adjustments but the other has elements of IDPA, IPSC, and the old gunzine "Paladin System." That one is difficult to get attuned to, but the Honolulu Hideable Handgun Hoedown, requiring Aloha shirts as concealment, is a lighthearted occasion.

It annoys me that USPSA has diverged from IPSC.

i recently purchased an old revolver with a magna grip. I didn't like the grip it was too small. for 2 handed shooting i found myself shooting cup and saucer.

Teacup can have its merits. Brace your elbow in on your ribs, and it will "blade you out" pretty readily. This also moved the rear sight back to your eyes by a foot or more.

It's not bad for revolvers as you can go ahead and let the pistol roll in your wrist to absorb recoil, and it will drop back into your cupped hand after. For autos, maybe not so much. A touch faster getting mags out with heel catches, but you have to "break stance" (which you may have to do just to get a fresh mag anyway).

Now, for obscure, and very, very old fashioned, there's the "fence rail" style where the support arm is brought up to near shoulder level, the lower arm brought parallel to the body. The firing arm is then laid over the support arm like resting on a fence rail. This pose appears to have no benefits at all--it's down to pure muscle tone all the way through. But was a "thing" back in the day.

Chick Gaylord, "rock the baby."
Grasp the gun arm elbow with the off hand, rest the gun hand on the off elbow.