Loads For Oddball Bullets

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eddiememphis

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Santa decided I was a good boy this years and is leaving a .45 Blackhawk under the tree.

I have been looking at various components for loading this beast and came across THESE, 200 grain copper plated SWC.

Looking at my various manuals, I see SWC lead in that weight. There are also loads for Hornady XTPs of the same weight.

When looking for load data on bullets that are not specifically named in reloading manuals, do you look for similar weight and construction? Are there other considerations I am missing?
 
I look for similar construction and weight, then start low on the load data and work my way up.

Those 200 grainers are pretty light, though probably long for it's size. You'll probably have to crank the rear sight elevation up some so it won't hit too low.
 
“X-Treme 45 Caliber (452 Diameter) Copper Plated Semi-Wadcutter Flat Point 200 Grain”
X-Treme publishes their own loading data.
https://xtremebullets.com/v/vspfiles/downloadables/RELOADING MANUAL2021.pdf

They don’t recommend that bullet for .45Colt, they recommend it for .45ACP. If you are considering it for .45Auto, check the X-Treme data and look at the specs for the bullet. Otherwise, check out the bullet they do recommend for the .45Colt and its data.
So I guess the first question is, we know the caliber you’re looking at but, which cartridge are you using?
 
Not listing a bullet in the data is not the same as not recommending it.
I’ve used 200 grain plated SWC in quite a few 45 Colt loads.
Worked great in a Blackhawk and a Handi rifle.
I used 200 grain jacketed data, work up to mid range in the data.
Seated deep and crimped lightly into the side of the bullet just below the shoulder.
Crimp just enough to distort the bullet’s surface, but not so much as to cut into the plating.
 
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“X-Treme 45 Caliber (452 Diameter) Copper Plated Semi-Wadcutter Flat Point 200 Grain”
X-Treme publishes their own loading data.
https://xtremebullets.com/v/vspfiles/downloadables/RELOADING MANUAL2021.pdf

They don’t recommend that bullet for .45Colt, they recommend it for .45ACP. If you are considering it for .45Auto, check the X-Treme data and look at the specs for the bullet. Otherwise, check out the bullet they do recommend for the .45Colt and its data.
So I guess the first question is, we know the caliber you’re looking at but, which cartridge are you using?

Colt. The revolver did not come with an ACP cylinder.

What is the difference between plated and jacketed?
 
Colt. The revolver did not come with an ACP cylinder.

What is the difference between plated and jacketed?
Thickness, alloy, composition, and hardness. Copper plating is thinner, softer and a different metal composition than a copper jacket. The front chapters of most loading manuals include a much more detailed explanation of how bullets are made. I highly recommend reading a few and the equivalent sections of manuals put out by plating companies like X-Treme.
SWC bullets are made for low pressure, low velocity and close range. Basically, targets. They should work fine with a .45Colt, just start at the lowest starting load for hard lead - the Lyman’s manuals typically show data for either #2 Alloy or Linotype, both of which tend to be very hard, which means the bases don’t obturate at low pressure like softer alloys. I would avoid data for swaged bullets and the softer alloys. Just my two cents.
 
What is the difference between plated and jacketed?
Main differences between plated and jacketed bullets are:
  • Jacketed bullets use disks punched from copper alloy/gilding metal sheets that are stretched into tube cups to around .015"-.030" in thickness to form around lead core and can be driven to higher muzzle velocities than plated bullets.
  • Plated bullets use acid bath to electroplate copper on lead core. Regular plated bullets have around .004" copper thickness and typically limited to around 1200 fps. Due to thinner copper thickness, regular plated bullets are often struck/double struck to ensure sizing and prone to swaging of bullet base if too much crimp is used. I found regular plated bullets to lose accuracy when pushed above mid-range jacketed load data and have used lead load data with good results. Care must be exercised to not use too much crimp so as to not cut through plating which could result in leading and loss of accuracy
  • Best to my knowledge, Speer TMJ (Total Metal Jacket) and Gold Dot HP bullets are thick plated bullets with corresponding .015" and .018" copper thickness comparable to copper alloy/gilding metal jackets and can be driven to full jacketed muzzle velocities with benefit of no jacket separation issue for HP expansion (I do believe Winchester PDX-1 is also thick plated HP). Speer TMJ/GDHP load data often list higher velocities than jacketed load data - https://www.speer.com/reloading/handgun-data.html
Cut cross section comparison of plated/jacketed bullets - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...jacketed-and-plated-ammo.666474/#post-8259927

index.php


From another thread "What are the differences between plated and jacketed bullets?" by @longdayjake, owner of RMR bullets and maker of jacketed bullets used by ELEY for their centerfire match ammunition - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...ed-and-jacketed-bullets.882188/#post-11796496

While plated bullets can stay together past 1200-1300 fps ... you will start to lose accuracy performance at about 1200. The way plated bullets are made is not conducive to consistency. Plated bullets have to made undersized and then "restruck" to fit a die. You can't make them oversize and then restrike them because the plating will stretch and crack ... have to try to plate the core to near the exact diameter so that it won't stretch too much nor squish down too much when it gets restruck.

... Plated bullets also suffer from being soft. I can't tell you how many customers have had tumbling issues [Keyholing] because they crimped too hard or they used the Lee Factory Crimp die to make sure their ammo would chamber. Plated bullets will resize in the casing. You can start with a 9mm bullet that is .355 and end up with one that is .350 if you crimp wrong.

Plating thickness ... Most are .004"-.006" thick with a few getting up to .008"-.010" at the body. This can be an issue when shooting from revolvers that have a really sharp forcing cone or when timing is off just a little bit. I've seen revolvers that will shave off one side of the plating.

On the other side of the coin we have jacketed bullets. The way they are made is simple enough. We take a copper alloy of 90% copper and 10% zinc which is known in the metal industry as commercial bronze. Some companies use 5% zinc and others use 20-30% zinc and make their jackets out of brass.

... That coin gets turned into a cup. The cup is trimmed and then a lead core is inserted. Then pressure is applied to them all and the bullet goes through three different stations where it is formed, base folded, base tamped, and then sent through a sizing die and out the bottom ... The wall thickness ends up around .020." This means that the bullet can handle much more abuse before it will deform or come apart.​
 
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“X-Treme 45 Caliber (452 Diameter) Copper Plated Semi-Wadcutter Flat Point 200 Grain”
X-Treme publishes their own loading data.
https://xtremebullets.com/v/vspfiles/downloadables/RELOADING MANUAL2021.pdf

They don’t recommend that bullet for .45Colt, they recommend it for .45ACP. If you are considering it for .45Auto, check the X-Treme data and look at the specs for the bullet. Otherwise, check out the bullet they do recommend for the .45Colt and its data.
So I guess the first question is, we know the caliber you’re looking at but, which cartridge are you using?
Somewhat off track, but…I use their .452 230gr RN bullets for 45ACP. (BTW, two years ago they were .451.)

Edit: I misremembered—their website says .452 but the boxes say .451.

It’s been a while since I’ve seen their loading manual and now recall it didn’t help me for 45ACP because I don’t own the three powders they use, BUT, I did notice something interesting in the data I hadn’t seen before—the primers used are listed as “Xtreme” brand.

Who knew they made their own primers? When did that happen? Where is the factory? @Mark_Mark what say you?

I’d also say their manual has a good explanation of the difference between plated & FMJ and sure they’re biased towards their own product but it’s an easy to follow explanation anyway.

Sorry for going off topic…Merry Christmas everyone
 
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primers used are listed as “Xtreme” brand.

When did that happen?
About the time Freedom Munitions started selling remanufactured and new ammunition using "FM" headstamp brass and X-Treme bullets (Since both Freedom Ammunition/X-Treme bullets were sold to Dan Kash)

https://www.xtremebullets.com/Small-Rifle-Primers-p/xsrp-b5000.htm

Who knew they made their own primers? ... Where is the factory?
https://www.glocktalk.com/threads/x...ne-know-who-makes-them.1613549/#post-23129150
GLOCKITIUS said:
Tomcat10 said:
I called X-Treme ... when I asked again if X-Treme manufactured them, or someone else, I was told X-Treme has a plant in Bosnia
Ginex is private labeling for X-Treme according to my conversation with X-Treme
 
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It’s been a while since I’ve seen [X-Treme] loading manual and ... has a good explanation of the difference between plated & FMJ and sure they’re biased towards their own product but it’s an easy to follow explanation anyway.
Since OP is using X-Treme plated bullet - https://xtremebullets.com/v/vspfiles/downloadables/RELOADING MANUAL2021.pdf

Jacketed Bullets - The manufacturing process begins by swaging a bullet core from lead wire, while using another punch press to form a jacket cup from a harder metal, generally copper gilding metal. Bullet core and jacket are then united in another transfer press operation before being washed, polished and sent to the next happy customer. Jacketed bullets by nature are very consistent and hard, but this also makes them the most expensive to manufacture.

Plated Bullets - Making plated bullets ... core is swaged from lead wire. After that ... process of plating copper onto lead to is very similar to chrome plating ... X-Treme Bullets undergo a full re-strike operation to ensure absolute consistency in final diameter and shape ... they are completely clad in copper, whereas most traditional jacketed pistol bullets still have an exposed lead base, which can create additional smoke during firing, and lead exposure when hand loading ... properly made plated bullet is extremely consistent in respect to overall dimensional, weight, and diameter ... there are certain factors you need to pay closer attention to when loading plated over jacketed bullets, such as powder burn speed, and especially crimp ... In our opinion, plated bullets, made using current technology, production techniques, and quality systems are superior in almost every way to a jacketed bullet for use in pistol ammunition.​
 
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As posted, those bullets are intended for .45 ACP, and you cal load them with upper range lead and midrange jacketed data with no issues.

That said, you can't hurt those bullets with any sane .45 ACP intended for target shooting, which is what those bullets are for.

They aren't lead so you can't strictly use lead data, some low end lead data can stick some plated bullets in some calibers.

They are jacketed so you can't strictly use jacketed data, as some of the higher end data can be over pressure with some plated bullets in some calibers.

The plated bullet makers over the years have changed what they recommend, but in the past have recommended everything from use lead data to any jacketed data is OK.

Here is the latest from Berrys

You can use those in .45 Colt if you lightly roll crimp over the front edge of the fat part, or taper crimp them with a .45 ACP seater or a dedicated taper crimp die (About $14 from Lee). You aren't going to hurt those bullets at standard .45 Colt pressures/velocities. Both the .45 ACP and Colt run low pressures and relatively low velocities, both well under what plated bullets can take.

Same goes for .44 Spl. Here is a 200 Gr X-Treme plated bullet with a taper crimp in .44 Spl. Shoots well.
Medium Taper Crimp on an X-Treme 200 Gr FP in .44 Spl Pic 1.JPG
 
I want to make it clear, this is just a mental exercise.

I have bought zero reloading components for this gun. I saw those bullets and thought it was an odd combination of weight, shape and plating so I wanted to know how one goes about finding load data for uncommon bullets.
 
When looking for load data on bullets that are not specifically named in reloading manuals, do you look for similar weight and construction? Are there other considerations I am missing?

I wanted to know how one goes about finding load data for uncommon bullets ... 200 grain copper plated SWC
X-Treme manual has load data for that bullet but in 45 ACP ... And you are looking for 45 Colt load data? - https://xtremebullets.com/v/vspfiles/downloadables/RELOADING MANUAL2021.pdf

When I am conducting load development for new bullet that is not listed on available published load data, I assemble as many "close" load data of same bullet type/weight and even reference load data for slightly heavier bullet.

So you could reference X-Treme's 225 gr FP plated load data for 200 gr SWC plated bullet with 10% reduction for start charge but powder selection is very limited.

As posted, those bullets are intended for .45 ACP, and you cal load them with upper range lead and midrange jacketed data with no issues.

You can use those in .45 Colt if you lightly roll crimp over the front edge of the fat part, or taper crimp them with a .45 ACP seater or a dedicated taper crimp die
As Walkalong posted, you could reference lead load data for plated bullets for your load development/powder work up.

Here's Speer's 45 Colt lead load data for 200 gr Lead SWC bullet - https://reloadingdata.speer.com/downloads/speer/reloading-pdfs/handgun/45_Colt_200_LSWC.pdf

And Hodgdon has 45 Colt lead load data for 200/215/225 gr bullets - https://www.hodgdonreloading.com/reloading-data-center

I have bought zero reloading components for this gun.
And you can actually buy "Zero" bullets. :)

https://www.powdervalleyinc.com/product/zero-452-45-acp-200-gr-swc/
 
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I want to make it clear, this is just a mental exercise.

I have bought zero reloading components for this gun. I saw those bullets and thought it was an odd combination of weight, shape and plating so I wanted to know how one goes about finding load data for uncommon bullets.
Ah, my bad, I thought you already had those bullets. I am shooting coated 255 Gr SWCs in .45 Colt,
although I have also used plated bullets with a taper crimp in .45 Colt.

I would buy some coated bullets for .45 Colt, load them, and enjoy.

Just for fun, here's a 265 Gr SWC in .45 Colt, they shot quite well.
Medium Roll Crimp on a .45 Colt 265 Gr SWC-HP Pic 1.JPG
USSR 265 Gr SWC-HP .45 Colt.JPG
 
As posted, those bullets are intended for .45 ACP, and you cal load them with upper range lead and midrange jacketed data with no issues.

That said, you can't hurt those bullets with any sane .45 ACP intended for target shooting, which is what those bullets are for.

They aren't lead so you can't strictly use lead data, some low end lead data can stick some plated bullets in some calibers.

They are jacketed so you can't strictly use jacketed data, as some of the higher end data can be over pressure with some plated bullets in some calibers.

The plated bullet makers over the years have changed what they recommend, but in the past have recommended everything from use lead data to any jacketed data is OK.

Here is the latest from Berrys

You can use those in .45 Colt if you lightly roll crimp over the front edge of the fat part, or taper crimp them with a .45 ACP seater or a dedicated taper crimp die (About $14 from Lee). You aren't going to hurt those bullets at standard .45 Colt pressures/velocities. Both the .45 ACP and Colt run low pressures and relatively low velocities, both well under what plated bullets can take.

Same goes for .44 Spl. Here is a 200 Gr X-Treme plated bullet with a taper crimp in .44 Spl. Shoots well.
View attachment 1122861
That is a beautiful bullet.
 
Ah, my bad, I thought you already had those bullets. I am shooting coated 255 Gr SWCs in .45 Colt,
although I have also used plated bullets with a taper crimp in .45 Colt.

I would buy some coated bullets for .45 Colt, load them, and enjoy.

Just for fun, here's a 265 Gr SWC in .45 Colt, they shot quite well.
View attachment 1122983
View attachment 1122984
That also is a beautiful bullet. And also a beautiful crimp.
 
eddiememphis,
Just throwing this out as a suggestion,
Having loaded a BUNCH of different types and weights of bullets for my 45C in a Redhawk, I have found that between 225gr and 280gr bullets have shot the best hands down.

I initially went with the SWC as pictured in the 45-270 SAA. It's a great bullet and very accurate. I have since moved into the RNFP and RNFP-HP's. What I found when I switched was that they were usually more widely available in different weights by most manufacturers.

I cast and shoot both conventional lubed a d PC'ed through mine and can say either works equally well. I have shot close to 300rds of uncoated through mine with little if any leading. There is a couple different load ranges for the 45C that you will find, and I can tell you that the lower end stuff shoots great. Just because you have a Ruger don't get wild, some of the Ruger only loads aren't going to be much fun with the Blackhawk. Not saying not to try some, just don't jump into a large batch, try them in small batches.

Good Luck, enjoy and be safe.
Merry Christmas,
 
I want to make it clear, this is just a mental exercise.

I have bought zero reloading components for this gun. I saw those bullets and thought it was an odd combination of weight, shape and plating so I wanted to know how one goes about finding load data for uncommon bullets.
Well, since it’s a mental exercise, I would like to point out that many editions of the older Ideal loading manuals - ca. pre-WW2 and immediately post-War - include sections describing to the handloader various methods of finding the correct seating depth, bullet shape and velocity, and how to calculate appropriate starting loads for combinations where the manual does not provide specific reference. It’s very old-school, not the least bit new-agey or computerish, and it may require some mathing so obviously not for everyone. However, reading up on these lost arts of the shooting troglodytes will exercise your brain pan.
 
... various methods of finding the correct seating depth, bullet shape and velocity, and how to calculate appropriate starting loads for combinations where the manual does not provide specific reference. It’s very old-school, not the least bit new-agey or computerish
30 years ago, my seasoned bullseye match shooting mentor did not have fancy computer ballistics program, digital scale or digital calipers ... Yet he used holes on target to develop his match pistol loads that shot better at 50 yards (Just about single ragged hole groups) than best I could do today at 25 yards (1.5" to 2" groups) using the latest electronic gismos and new/improved powders. :eek:

Nothing wrong with "old school" and ultimately it's "Holes on target speak volumes". ;)

In fact, while digital scales/calipers are faster to use, I am well at home with my Ohaus 10-10/RCBS 5-0-5 and newly acquired Dillon Eliminator that don't need batteries and always verifies check weights along with FA dial calipers that match readings from Brown and Sharpe micrometer.

And I could certainly conduct load development to produce accurate match grade loads using these "old school" equipment and methods.
 
The primary dimension for me, if the oddball bullet is the same weight as one for which I already have a load for, is the depth of the base of the bullet into the case. By comparing bullet lengths you can calculate the new target COAL to preserve the same combustion chamber size.
 
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