9mm vs 357mag

I dunno. The higher 124 9mm are tripping along at 1100 fps.

The 125 .357 at 1400.

300 FPS is nothing to sneeze at.

Go look at full house Buffalo bore .357.

https://www.buffalobore.com/index.php?l=product_detail&p=102

The only time you will see a big difference between 357 and 9mm is when 357 does stuff 9mm cant.
Such as found with 158gr to 200gr bullets, still have plenty of room for powder because of that additional case capacity over 9 and then throw it out of a longer barrel than what's typically found on 9mm hand guns.
In that case 357 stomps the crap out of 9mm.
At that point it's not nearly as practical as carry gun compared to most 9mms.

I am a self-avowed 357 Magnum hater and yet I fully acknowledge that 357 Magnum is more cartridge than 9mm in the raw ballistics. The differences get bigger as bullet weight goes up and barrel length gets longer. The extra case volume of 357 Magnum really makes a difference in both of those cases.

A 357/38 Super comparison more appropriate IMHO. The 38 Super was developed to give LEOs more punch, allow them to disable motor vehicles more readily.

If you're getting attacked by clear gelatin maybe

a 125gr going 1600fps is a lot more energy than a 9mm

https://www.buffalobore.com/index.php?l=product_detail&p=103

Huh. The standard 9mm Parabellum loads used to have about 350 ft/lbs of muzzle energy, or a bit more if you reduced bullet weight for increased velocity with the same chamber pressure. Now I see that loads that develop between 500 and 550 fl/lbs. At least one of these is identified as a "+P+" load, though: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/9×19mm_Parabellum.

Similarly, 357 Magnum loads used to develop muzzle energy in the mid 500 ft/lbs. Now this can be pushed up to nearly 800: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.357_Magnum

There still seems to be a considerable difference between 9mm and 357 to me. It also seems like the actual difference would depend on how much you want to push the gun you fire the high-end rounds in for either cartridge. Both cartridges are offered in a wide range of guns, down to J-frame size 357's and PPK size 9mms, and the smaller gun is, the less I would want to push it really hard, if only for reasons of felt recoil. That would leave both guns firing ammo more like the old standards, where 357 Magnum had a distinct advantage.

As an aside, I also think that with everything thing else being at least similar (like bullet diameter), kinetic energy is a good measure of the potential of the bullet to do damage. The actual damage will vary with bullet design and with what is hit, and probably other things. (I hope I am not ignoring something important in the other things. Particularly something that is not affected by kinetic energy. If I am, I would like to learn about it.)

To sum up: Yes, there is now 9mm Parabellum factory ammuntion that has about the same kinetic energy as the old factory standard 357 Magnum loads. However, a similar process of development has been applied to 357 Magnum, and there are now loads for it far more powerful than the old standards.

How that energy is translated into penetration in ballistic gel (which is what the Lucky Gunner articles are comparing) is not something I know about, but I would think that bullet design development would result in both cartridges using their kinetic energy as efficiently as possible. That would still leave 357 Magnum with a significant edge. On the other hand, I don't know much about modern pistol bullet design and construction, so perhaps there are limits to this of which I am unaware.

Maybe it could be said that the power levels available now in 357 Magnum are greater than can be used in a handgun of practical size, while that is not true of the new 9mm loads? Beats me. Between hearing about how 40 S&W is dying because it has too much recoil, and how 10mm is resurging because it is wonderful to shoot, I am very confused with that subject. I gave up arguing with people who like 44 Magnuim for self defense a long time ago.

PS - I used Wikipedia as a source because it is handy and has the kinetic energy numbers. For some reason Lucky Gunner, despite having both the mass and the velocity figures for every load tested, does not do this calculation. Has kinetic energy gone out of fashion? Maybe because bullet design makes so much difference now?

I know there have always been people who did not like KE, but they were usually fans of big slow heavy bullets. Have there been other changes?

Styx said:

I was just comparing Lucky Gunner's ballistic testing results, and I'm not seeing a real difference in numbers. The general consensus by most would be that 357mag is more powerful than 9mm, but looking at the numbers on paper, the difference seem negotiable. I carry a revolver loaded with 125gr 357, but this data has me not seeing the benefits.
(Please let's leave capacity, ammo availability and cost, etc out of the discussion, and only focus on the performance and ballistic difference only. )

Click to expand...

I think there is something to be said for efficiency where the extra capacity the 357 has becomes unburned powder from the short barrel. That being said, I'm pretty sure most calculations have the 357 beating the 9mm significantly from any barrel length.

mcb said:

The differences get bigger as bullet weight goes up and barrel length gets longer. The extra case volume of 357 Magnum really makes a difference in both of those cases.

Click to expand...

Yeah, the native weight of the 9mm is 124gr and typically tops out at 147gr, while the .357 Magnum native weight is 158gr. There are plenty of options for .357 Mag above 158gr too.

Styx said:

I was just comparing Lucky Gunner's ballistic testing results, and I'm not seeing a real difference in numbers. The general consensus by most would be that 357mag is more powerful than 9mm, but looking at the numbers on paper, the difference seem negotiable. I carry a revolver loaded with 125gr 357, but this data has me not seeing the benefits.

9mm Luger (9x19) Ballistic Test Results

.357 Magnum Ballistic Test Results

(Please let's leave capacity, ammo availability and cost, etc out of the discussion, and only focus on the performance and ballistic difference only. )

Click to expand...

Depends entirely on the load and the barrel length for .357 Magnum. If you're using less than a 4" barrel, you're losing much of the benefit. If you're using less than a 3" barrel, you're just wasting powder.

For myself in 357 mag I prefer 6" barrels and 158 gr.

4" barrel works well with 357 Sig 125gr.
I believe the Gold Dots I have are moving along at about 1400 FPS.

Styx said:

They usually EDC in anything from a 2" to 4" barrel. I'm not seeing a significant performance difference in self-defense rounds between 9mm and 357 magnum.

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Looking at the above chart, out of a 4" barrel the Remington 158gr .357 Mag round is traveling at 1287fps.

The Winchester 147gr 9mm rounds, also assuming 4" barrel, since that is the common 9mm pistol barrel length tested, are traveling at 940fps - 960fps

The energy isn't published, but an extra 10grs of bullet weight at an extra 300+fps must add up to something.

Edit to add: Nobody is telling you to choose .357 Mag if you prefer 9mm. I usually assume a typical revolver is capable of moving a more powerful round, but that advantage is only really an advantage when shooting non-human critters.

After the Miami FBI fiasco, the FBI came up with very specific requirements of what they wanted bullets to do.

All the major manufacturers said “Ok, we will design all our duty loads to meet those criteria.”

And, they did. They slowed some down. They sped some up. Tougher jacket, deeper hollow point.

When everything from 9mm to .45 met all the same specifications, it was announced that based on gel tests, all handgun rounds perform the same. And, why bother with a .357 Magnum. 357 SIG. .40. Or .45 when the tests prove, they all behave exactly the same.

Yes. By design.

The 9mm Silvertip was a “failure” in Miami. It went through Platts shoulder. Expanded as it was supposed to entered his thorax and, ran out of gas before it got to his heart. A 9mm ball would have been a better round ‘in that situation’.

I am convinced, I hardcast .357 Magnum will not run out of gas. It will go in one side of the biggest, recently released felon, go through all the important stuff inside and, right out the other.

So. In a dense urban environment, there is danger of collateral damage. But, in sheer effectiveness, yeah.

I’m also pretty sure the penetration depth required in the FBI standards was quite intentional for liability reasons. NYPD cops probably need to be conscious of a pass through.

A deputy in Wyoming or Nevada, not so much.

Styx said:

I was just comparing Lucky Gunner's ballistic testing results, and I'm not seeing a real difference in numbers. The general consensus by most would be that 357mag is more powerful than 9mm, but looking at the numbers on paper, the difference seem negotiable. I carry a revolver loaded with 125gr 357, but this data has me not seeing the benefits.

9mm Luger (9x19) Ballistic Test Results

.357 Magnum Ballistic Test Results

(Please let's leave capacity, ammo availability and cost, etc out of the discussion, and only focus on the performance and ballistic difference only. )

Click to expand...

@derek45 is spot on. Gel is a great way to compare the performance of similar bullets or to see what will happened if one is attacked by a block of gelatin.

The problem with shooting gel is it presents a best-case scenario. In the case of the 9mm, if you're using a quality expanding bullet, if the bullet expands, and if the bullet doesn't encounter something like a rib bone, sternum, ulna, radius or humerus enroute to the CNS or vital organs.
More powerful and/or larger caliber cartridges provide for a much greater margin for error.

I've always said if you really want to know how bullets perform, shoot some game and trace the paths of some bullets and see what different style bullets do when they hit a bone or bones. It's really quite eye-opening.

35W

Styx said:

If you go to Lucky Gunner via the links supplied in the OP, you can see that overall there are 9mm loads that preforms simular to almost all the 357 loads. Despite the velocity differences and extra grains of bullet weight with 357, but the penetration and final diameter seems to be similar with a lot of 9mm loads.

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Is your standard for performance only penetration depth? Would greater penetration depth be better performance, or worse?

Styx said:

@powermad, @WrongHanded, @derek45, @mcb, @N555, @sgt127

So basically 357 magnum hand loads and beautique loads can be much more powerful than 9mm. I get that. What about in terms of what the overwhelming majority of people are actually carrying for self-defense. They usually EDC in anything from a 2" to 4" barrel. I'm not seeing a significant performance difference in self-defense rounds between 9mm and 357 magnum. Yea, in some cases 357 might have more velocity; however, why does that matter if the end results are similar as in they both can generally penitrate to simular depths and expand to simular diameters?

Click to expand...

I can download 300 RUM to mimic 300 BO but that does not mean they are the same. Most of the 357 Magnum commercial defensive loads are downloaded to have ballistics similar to that of 9mm not be cause it the best but because it ride that balance between shoot-ability and terminal performance in commonly carried CCW guns.

Take the common commercial self defense loads (9mm and 357 Mag) and then some handloads or boutique loads that are pushing 357 Magnum to the max safe limits for 357 Mag and go to the range and shoot stuff. It won't take much of that and you will see just how much more potent terminally hot 357 Mag is than much of the commercial offerings and how much harder it is to shoot fast and accurately with. It is not all about terminal performance with ammo for CCW guns, you got to be able to shoot it and hit stuff with it quickly an accurately. Most people cannot do that with full bore 357 magnum in small light weight revolvers, many cannot do it with 38 Special +P. Go borrow a 340PD and even shooting commercial self defense 357 Mag ammo is painful and the really hot stuff is down right abusive.

I’ve started carrying an old Sig P232 .380 I’ve had for years. Alloy frame. Stainless slide. Whipped up a little holster and mag pouch.

It’s an absolute pleasure to carry. It’s loaded with Buffalo Bore hardcast. Where I live, I’m not too concerned about pass throughs. What I’m certain of, is that little bullets going to go deep enough to hit important stuff. Break stuff. Even a pelvis.

One spare mag is loaded with Gold Dots. If I’m wandering around in Vegas, where literally, the only thing behind a bad guy is hundreds of innocents, I’d load the Gold Dots.

Picking the first round listed in each table

Winchester 9mm 124gr Ranger +P penetrates 22.2" and expands to .41"

Remington .357 Mag 158gr HP penetrates 14.2" and expands to .62".

They don't seem to be equals, but what does one value more.