I noticed just now on Cheaper than Dirt that this ammo comes in two weights -- previously, I'd only noticed the 185-gr variety.
How effective is one vs the other, assuming same shot placement?
Ultimately it depends on the individual load, including the bullet technology that is used. The best thing to do would be to find penetration and expansion data from calibrated ballistic tests.
In general (may not apply to all cases), for any given caliber heavier bullets do tend to behave differently from lighter bullets when fired. The former sort of concentrate their momentum and energy in their weight and longer length, naturally, and give them up less readily and quickly to any media that is encountered, which usually results in greater penetration. The latter depend more on higher velocity to give them about equal momentum and greater energy (which varies according to the square of velocity), but because of the higher velocity they tend to more quickly transfer momentum and energy to any media encountered, pushing it more quickly out of the way, thereby stretching it out a bit more (temporary cavitation), while slowing down at a higher rate, usually resulting in less penetration.
Which is more effective depends on a lot of other factors, including bullet design, the size and power of the caliber relative to the target, and what parameters one considers to be the most effective. For example, with .45 ACP (and most other "service" calibers), I personally favor loads with heavy-for-caliber bullets because penetration (which I consider most important) with bullet expansion is already marginal as it is. Given that overpenetration should not be a concern with self-defense JHP bullets, and the amount of energy involved is likely insufficient to wound substantially on its own, heavier bullets are also generally more resilient, by which I mean less affected by barriers such as furniture, doors, and bones. So in most cases, all else being equal, heavier bullets tend to be more effective.
How is recoil for one vs the other?
For a given caliber, heavier bullets will usually recoil slightly harder, but I can barely tell the difference in most cases (it depends largely on how close the momentum is between different loads).
In my book i don't have info on the golden sabers exactly but i do have there 2
rem 185gr jhp 1100fps
411ft-lbs
rem 230gr jhp 835fps
356ft.lbs
so from going form this info i would choose the little lighter and faster 185gr. as long as it was reliable in my gun. it is getting more ft. lbs of energy on target.
But what do those additional ft-lbs do? They're only there to give the lighter bullet enough momentum to do its job, and are made possible because lighter bullets are shorter, leaving more room in the cartridge case for more powder and the generation of more gas at the same maximum pressure and holding that pressure for longer. What you'll get is more energy imparted to tissues, stretching them out a bit further but not necessarily doing any more real damage, as well as quite possibly less penetration, especially through barriers or tough materials. Some believe in the value of so-called "hydrostatic shock" even at the modest energy levels of .45 ACP, but keep in mind that living tissue is far more elastic and resilient than ballistic gelatin and wet phonebooks, both of which much more readily and permanently deform when hit by faster, more energetic bullets. This is where I think real-world performance often deviates most significantly from lab test results.
also with the 185gr getting 1100fps, theoritically it should expand better, as compared to the 230gr that is only going 835fps. even thought the 185gr is lighter, i believe that it would have the best terminal ballistics.
It depends on the design of the bullet, too. In most scenarios, using modern premium JHPs designed for law enforcement and self-defense, I wouldn't bet on the 185 grain bullet outperforming the 230 grain bullet--not unless tests show that a particular bullet design works better with lighter bullets, in which case I would look for a different bullet design.
That said, ultimately the optimum choice depends on finding the best combination of penetration and expansion (by absolute diameter, not a multiplicative factor), whatever the weight of the bullet may be.
I don't know. I like the higher energy, but most people say stick with 230 in 45, period.
Aside from terminal performance, another reason for doing so is that semiautomatic weapons are usually designed to function most reliably with a specific bullet weight, which for .45 ACP would be 230 grains. A 185 grain bullet shot at a higher velocity is almost the same as far as the guns are concerned, but not exactly, and some people like to play it really safe with regard to reliability.
Golden Saber is a very good bullet. I think most modern duty bullets are getting better and better at opening up and performing with excellence at the slower short barrel and 230 grain .45 Auto velocities.
What you say is true, although I have to think that there must be a limit to how slow you can go, and heavier bullets, for all of their advantages, leave less of a margin for JHPs to work with, particularly with the combination of the .45 ACP caliber and barrels shorter than 5". I'm not really concerned myself because I err on the side of penetration anyway, and less expansion means more penetration.
HST is a prime example of that, in HST, bullet weight is no longer an indicator of less expansion, it actually expands better than the lighter weight versions of the same bullets.
This can be true with some designs because heavier bullets are generally longer bullets, which allow for more material to expand outward. The reason HST works so well at lower velocities is neither genius nor magic--the bullet is fully pre-cut for expansion at the factory (the genius is in developing how to manufacture the bullet consistently and cheaply).
While HST and some other modern JHPs are undoubtedly impressive in how they expand, remember that maximum expansion in itself is not the end goal. Some people give the impression that it is, to them, when selecting their primary self-defense load, and are often willing, in my opinion, to accept marginal penetration as a trade-off, but that's not necessarily the best choice. There are also bullet designs that carefully and deliberately limit the expansion process, and these may be worth looking into as well if they give a good combination of penetration and expansion in the lab.
It might help to remember that JHP's don't always perform up to their design criteria. With barricades, car windows and bodies, and heavy winter clothing a heavier bullet is always better than a lighter one.
Are people really concerned about penetrating heavy winter clothing? If anything, it could cause JHPs to fail to expand sometimes and massively
overpenetrate, but I wouldn't worry about getting enough penetration--bullets should zip right through clothing almost like it wasn't there, unless you're wearing Kevlar. I think that all of the crazy rumors from the Korean War about .30 Carbine being unable to penetrate winter clothing still haunt us to this day. All of this could have been avoided with better aim.
Winchester Ranger SXT (either flavor) and Remington Golden Saber are the only two pistol JHP's that actually use the bullet's jacket as a cutting mechanism in order to inflict target damage.
Yes, but the Golden Saber also has issues with jacket separation, from what I've seen. I'm not sure about the older Ranger SXTs, but the newer Ranger-Ts seem to hold together pretty well, as long as they don't encounter hard barriers along the way, that is. For the latter, nothing beats bonded and all-copper bullets.
If your pistol will reliably feed 230 grain JHP's I'd suggest that you use them. Me? I prefer 230 grain FMJ/RN; but, that's another story.
In that case, 230 grain FMJ-FN or FMJ-TC may be more effective.
So, if light bullets penetrate less than heavier ones from a long barrel, and they lose more velocity than heavier ones do in a short barrel, one can put two and two together and realize that light bullets will penetrate even less in short barrels.
That's a great way to put it, and this goes for lighter powder loads as well, such as .38 Special as opposed to .357 Magnum. Indeed, most recommend heavier bullets for the former to squeeze out all the penetration you can get, and lighter bullets for the latter to help avoid overpenetration in human targets (heavier bullets are used for hunting larger animals).
