bigalexe
Member
Ive heard somewhere that a bolt action is more accurate than a semi-auto because the action jumps around less. My question is whether the magazine fed bolt actions are closer in accuracy to single shot bolts or regular semi-autos?
Whats the accuracy of a bolt-action with magazine?
- Thread starter bigalexe
- Start date
- Status
Smokey Joe
Member
- Joined
- Jan 2, 2003
- Messages
- 2,617
Blanket question, doily answer...
Big Alex--
The same is true of bolt guns. And bolt guns with magazines, too.
There just isn't a one-verdict-fits-all answer.
Sorry.
Perhaps you could make your question more specific.
Big Alex--
It isn't as simple as that. A well-set-up and bedded semi-auto, shooting handloads matched to it, handled by an expert with that weapon, will be very accurate. A worn,sloppy, poorly-maintained semi-auto, shooting cheap milsurp ammo from Bronislavia, will easily hit the side of a barn, from the inside.
The same is true of bolt guns. And bolt guns with magazines, too.
There just isn't a one-verdict-fits-all answer.
Sorry.
Perhaps you could make your question more specific.
Last edited:
I would agree that some accuracy is lost from a semi-auto.. I would attribute that to looseness in the action and inconsistencies in pressure due to the fact that the gas blows the action back.. I cannot fathom how this wouldnt effect the accuracy...
As far as the single shot bolt action as compared to a mag(ed) bolt action, I see no reason one would lose any accuracy by comparison to a single shot.
As far as the single shot bolt action as compared to a mag(ed) bolt action, I see no reason one would lose any accuracy by comparison to a single shot.
freakshow10mm
member
- Joined
- Apr 20, 2008
- Messages
- 1,951
Single shots are more rigid than repeaters.
bigalexe
Member
Ok thinking about the differences cited in the action ive improved my question.
For a magazine fed bolt action do you manually rack the bolt every shot or is it a semi-auto with a bolt? If you manually rack it then i think it should be accurate as a regular single because theres no gasses running the action.
For a magazine fed bolt action do you manually rack the bolt every shot or is it a semi-auto with a bolt? If you manually rack it then i think it should be accurate as a regular single because theres no gasses running the action.
dullh
Member
A bolt gun is a bolt gun. My new X-bolt put them all through the same hole at 100 yards - straight out of the box. It is magazine fed - and the magazine is detachable.
I have never heard of a semi-auto bolt action rifle. You cycle the bolt by hand to chamber the next round.
I have never heard of a semi-auto bolt action rifle. You cycle the bolt by hand to chamber the next round.
I thought that rigidity was the final frontier when it came to bolt gun accuracy, but from what I read, benchrest rail guns like this:
http://www.benchrest.com/youngrails/
seem to get aggregate groups in the low teens, not much better than a regular custom benchrest rifle. My guess is that singleshots are mostly a nit-pick thing.
Now this is just my opinion, which I've never heard elsewhere, but I think that semi-autos lose accuracy due to the gas leaking out the chamber unevenly, destabilizing the bullet before it leaves the muzzle. Kind of like a beat up muzzle's effect on accuracy.
I also think thats why the PSG1 is known for it's accuracy, using roller-delayed blowback:
http://www.hkpro.com/technical.htm
http://www.benchrest.com/youngrails/
seem to get aggregate groups in the low teens, not much better than a regular custom benchrest rifle. My guess is that singleshots are mostly a nit-pick thing.
Now this is just my opinion, which I've never heard elsewhere, but I think that semi-autos lose accuracy due to the gas leaking out the chamber unevenly, destabilizing the bullet before it leaves the muzzle. Kind of like a beat up muzzle's effect on accuracy.
I also think thats why the PSG1 is known for it's accuracy, using roller-delayed blowback:
http://www.hkpro.com/technical.htm
P.B.Walsh
Member
Does anyone make a single shot Remington 700 action?
A single shot will have more POTENTIAL for accuracy than a repeater. Like mentioned in an earlier post the receiver can be more solid. This not only equates to more rigidity in the receiver but also more surface area for bedding, room for another action screw and the option for a second recoil lug.
Does this mean that a single shot bolt gun WILL be more accurate? Absolutely not, but all other factors being equal it may eek out a small advantage.
Does this mean that a single shot bolt gun WILL be more accurate? Absolutely not, but all other factors being equal it may eek out a small advantage.
sarduy
Member
for example: if you want to know if a Remington 700-DM (Detachable Magazine) is less accurate than a standard Remington without a detachable mag the answer is NO they will have ~ the same accuracy.
By and large, bolt actions tend to be more accurate than semi autos. That doesn't mean that a given semi can't be accurate. Accuracy is measured by the distance from the aiming point to the bullet strike. Precision is measured by group size.
My M1 Garand produced accuracy yesterday of 13 rounds within 2 1/4" from dead center at 100 yd. The precision was sub MOA. Largest group was 1.152" the smallest was .492" The score was 125 points out of 130 possible.
On another target, the rifle produced 11 Xs in a 2" bullseye. However, it took many hours of gunsmithing to produce that precision. When I got the rifle it shot 10" groups. Handloading ammunition assisted in producing accuracy.
My Mauser .270 will shoot nickel sized groups at 100 yd. straight from the factory (Belgium FN). Which is more accurate?
My M1 Garand produced accuracy yesterday of 13 rounds within 2 1/4" from dead center at 100 yd. The precision was sub MOA. Largest group was 1.152" the smallest was .492" The score was 125 points out of 130 possible.
On another target, the rifle produced 11 Xs in a 2" bullseye. However, it took many hours of gunsmithing to produce that precision. When I got the rifle it shot 10" groups. Handloading ammunition assisted in producing accuracy.
My Mauser .270 will shoot nickel sized groups at 100 yd. straight from the factory (Belgium FN). Which is more accurate?
JohnBT
Member
"My question is whether the magazine fed bolt actions are closer in accuracy to single shot bolts or regular semi-autos?"
I vote for closer to single shot bolts.
In order to make it feed more reliably, the typical factory semi-auto has a larger chamber than a bolt action. I know Volquartsen makes 10/22 barrels with a true match chamber, but they're $300 or $400 or so depending on features the last time I looked.
www.riflebarrels.com/products/chamber_info.htm
"We use several different chambering reamers in making our .17 and .22 caliber drop-in barrels. The reamer used depends on the type of barrel and action it will be installed on. The different types are listed below: <list of 6>"
and
"There is a compromise between throat length, ease of loading and extracting, and accuracy. A short, match-type chamber that engages the bullet in the rifling will generally deliver the best accuracy. Our longer-throat reamer, as used in the Ruger 10/22 barrels, still yields excellent accuracy but the throat does not "grab" the bullet. If you would like to have a bolt action barrel rechambered with this longer-throat reamer we will do so at no additional charge."
I vote for closer to single shot bolts.
In order to make it feed more reliably, the typical factory semi-auto has a larger chamber than a bolt action. I know Volquartsen makes 10/22 barrels with a true match chamber, but they're $300 or $400 or so depending on features the last time I looked.
www.riflebarrels.com/products/chamber_info.htm
"We use several different chambering reamers in making our .17 and .22 caliber drop-in barrels. The reamer used depends on the type of barrel and action it will be installed on. The different types are listed below: <list of 6>"
and
"There is a compromise between throat length, ease of loading and extracting, and accuracy. A short, match-type chamber that engages the bullet in the rifling will generally deliver the best accuracy. Our longer-throat reamer, as used in the Ruger 10/22 barrels, still yields excellent accuracy but the throat does not "grab" the bullet. If you would like to have a bolt action barrel rechambered with this longer-throat reamer we will do so at no additional charge."
bigalexe
Member
Alright so basically what you guys are saying is a mag fed bolt is really just like a regular bolt where it loads its own rounds through the mag instead of you replacing them every time. Sounds like a good call.
The reason for the question is that Savage Mk II is mag fed and ive heard great things about it. I didnt want to get something where my accuracy was limited by having a particular action type.
The reason for the question is that Savage Mk II is mag fed and ive heard great things about it. I didnt want to get something where my accuracy was limited by having a particular action type.
P.B.Walsh
Member
So, which would be more accurate, a MkI (single shot), or a MkII (mag. fed)
rcmodel
Member in memoriam
Luck of the draw.
Whichever one has the best bedding job, and the best barrel, will outshoot the other one.
If the repeater has a better barrel and bedding then the SS, it will outshoot the SS.
The fact remains however, that either one will probably outshoot 85% - 90%+ of the people shooting them.
rc
Whichever one has the best bedding job, and the best barrel, will outshoot the other one.
If the repeater has a better barrel and bedding then the SS, it will outshoot the SS.
The fact remains however, that either one will probably outshoot 85% - 90%+ of the people shooting them.
rc
It's not exactly as you suspect...
Bolt guns CAN be more accurate than Semi-Autos,
Not that they are inherently more accurate right out of the box...
Something like an AR style rifle can be EXTREMELY ACCURATE out of the box since it's all synthetic, and all the variables can be addressed in terms of machining and assembly.
Properly machined part 'A' simply fits better into properly machined part 'B', and so on...
You wind up with a very accurate rifle with little to no variance from rifle to rifle,
And since there aren't any 'Organic' components in the rifle, there aren't any 'Issues' with stuff like humidity changes, warpage, ect.
In the case of the AR, the machines have put all the time in fitting the parts for proper mount an alignment, and you don't have to 'Dink' with it...
--------------
Now, if you flip that over to a 'Hand Made' rifle that had machined parts, but they all had to be 'Hand Fitted' to make them work together,
Then there is a lot of vairance in the assembly, and every rifle will shoot differently depending on who put it together and how it was assembled...
Also, the 'Organic' parts of the rifle change shape, warp, twist, swell...
Stocks do some pretty strange stuff, and dissimilar metals will do some pretty strange stuff...
One steel will expand/contract faster than another,
One will use steel receiver, and then plop an aluminum mount on top not realizing that the aluminum will expand TWICE as much as the steel receiver and it will expand THREE TIMES FASTER than the steel receiver....
With Wood stocks,
You either have to machine out the wood large enough to accept EVERY variation of the action/barrel assembly,
or you have to HAND INLET every single stock which takes a TON of time,
And to do it correctly, you need a dedicated, trained stock maker... And those don't grow on trees anymore!
You CAN make a bolt gun more accurate than most Auto Loaders,
But it will take time, effort, skill and a lot of supplies.
Then there is the WORST of two worlds!
An Auto Loader in a conventional wooden stock!...
This combo will drive you crazy since the auto loading mechanism doesn't always set the next round the same way it did the LAST round... Plus all the problems with organics and machining that most combinations have!
Bolt guns are VERY GOOD about NOT scratching up or deforming the bullet/cartridge as it's loaded into the chamber....
Most Auto Loaders bang the cartridge around pretty good and the bullet/cartridge case gets marked up, deformed, ect.
Then there is an issue with stuff like cartridge head spacing and bolt tension...
Is the bolt/chamber holding the cartridge EXACTLY like the one it did before?
Autoloaders have a tendency to have large variances in this department...
Autoloading bolts don't always lock exactly like they did before, ect.
Where bolt guns have very good 'Repeatability' in respect to how they hold the cartridge and head space the cartridge...
All in all, the VAST MAJORITY OF FIREARMS ARE ALREADY MORE ACCURATE THAN THE PERSON THAT IS SHOOTING THEM...
Some guys want a little bit more, so they do this or that,
Then there are the fraction of 1% of gun owners than have OCD (Obsessive/Compulsive Disorder) when it comes to hitting the target,
So they will spend HUNDREDS of hours taking the variables out of the rifle,
And thousands of hours taking the variables out of the ammo and themselves!
(No, I'm NOT EXCLUDING myself! :brickwall )
Bolt guns CAN be more accurate than Semi-Autos,
Not that they are inherently more accurate right out of the box...
Something like an AR style rifle can be EXTREMELY ACCURATE out of the box since it's all synthetic, and all the variables can be addressed in terms of machining and assembly.
Properly machined part 'A' simply fits better into properly machined part 'B', and so on...
You wind up with a very accurate rifle with little to no variance from rifle to rifle,
And since there aren't any 'Organic' components in the rifle, there aren't any 'Issues' with stuff like humidity changes, warpage, ect.
In the case of the AR, the machines have put all the time in fitting the parts for proper mount an alignment, and you don't have to 'Dink' with it...
--------------
Now, if you flip that over to a 'Hand Made' rifle that had machined parts, but they all had to be 'Hand Fitted' to make them work together,
Then there is a lot of vairance in the assembly, and every rifle will shoot differently depending on who put it together and how it was assembled...
Also, the 'Organic' parts of the rifle change shape, warp, twist, swell...
Stocks do some pretty strange stuff, and dissimilar metals will do some pretty strange stuff...
One steel will expand/contract faster than another,
One will use steel receiver, and then plop an aluminum mount on top not realizing that the aluminum will expand TWICE as much as the steel receiver and it will expand THREE TIMES FASTER than the steel receiver....
With Wood stocks,
You either have to machine out the wood large enough to accept EVERY variation of the action/barrel assembly,
or you have to HAND INLET every single stock which takes a TON of time,
And to do it correctly, you need a dedicated, trained stock maker... And those don't grow on trees anymore!
You CAN make a bolt gun more accurate than most Auto Loaders,
But it will take time, effort, skill and a lot of supplies.
Then there is the WORST of two worlds!
An Auto Loader in a conventional wooden stock!...
This combo will drive you crazy since the auto loading mechanism doesn't always set the next round the same way it did the LAST round... Plus all the problems with organics and machining that most combinations have!
Bolt guns are VERY GOOD about NOT scratching up or deforming the bullet/cartridge as it's loaded into the chamber....
Most Auto Loaders bang the cartridge around pretty good and the bullet/cartridge case gets marked up, deformed, ect.
Then there is an issue with stuff like cartridge head spacing and bolt tension...
Is the bolt/chamber holding the cartridge EXACTLY like the one it did before?
Autoloaders have a tendency to have large variances in this department...
Autoloading bolts don't always lock exactly like they did before, ect.
Where bolt guns have very good 'Repeatability' in respect to how they hold the cartridge and head space the cartridge...
All in all, the VAST MAJORITY OF FIREARMS ARE ALREADY MORE ACCURATE THAN THE PERSON THAT IS SHOOTING THEM...
Some guys want a little bit more, so they do this or that,
Then there are the fraction of 1% of gun owners than have OCD (Obsessive/Compulsive Disorder) when it comes to hitting the target,
So they will spend HUNDREDS of hours taking the variables out of the rifle,
And thousands of hours taking the variables out of the ammo and themselves!
(No, I'm NOT EXCLUDING myself! :brickwall )
oneounceload
member
Remington does - in their custom shop:
Does anyone make a single shot Remington 700 action?
JohnBT
Member
"Bolt guns CAN be more accurate than Semi-Autos"
Over 100 years of benchrest shooting has more than proven that statement to be true. If semi-autos could be made to consistently shoot better than bolt guns they would all be using them. But they're not.
I'm trying to think of another commonly available factory semi-auto that's as accurate as a good factory AR and drawing a blank.
John
Over 100 years of benchrest shooting has more than proven that statement to be true. If semi-autos could be made to consistently shoot better than bolt guns they would all be using them. But they're not.
I'm trying to think of another commonly available factory semi-auto that's as accurate as a good factory AR and drawing a blank.
John
Smith357
Member
My .30-06 BAR MK II was sub MOA out of the box with factory ammo. I never bothered to work up a load because the first handloads were also in one ragged hole, nothing to work up. It was no BR gun but a damn fine hunting rifle.
- Status
