7.62x25MM reload data needed !

Lyman #49 has a chapter for 7.62 TOK/.30 Mauser.

They show no TightGroup data using jacketed bullets but do show it used with cast lead bullets.

The Hornady Manual also has a chapter, but no data for Tightgroup.

Seems your best results would come with slightly slower powder.

rc

Alliant Unique is the most versatile handgun powder there is.
That's why they named it Unique!

TightGroup is #10 on the Hodgdon burn rate chart. (10th fastest powder there is)

Unique is # 25.

The 7.62mm TOK is a high pressure round, and will do best safely with medium burn rate powder.

rc

Some data here:

http://www.makarov.com/tokloaddata.html

Unfortunately, the two links

http://www.makarov.com/tokloaddata.html
http://www.handloads.org/loaddata/d...&Weight=All&type=Handgun&Order=Powder&Source=

do not list the TiteGroup.

QuickLoad for jacketed bullet of 98 grains, 0.492" (guess from the other bullet), which is seated to OAL 1.253" (again, guessed from the other), over TiteGroup in 4.72" barrel calculates the following data:

- MAX load: 5.05 grains, 1177fps, 34800PSI, which is 100% of the max pressure, All powder burns when bullet travels just .8" in the barrel. I would not suggest to load that hot.

- 70% load: 4.14 grains, 1085fps, 24400PSI, which is 70% of the max SAAMI. Powder burns when bullet travels 1.2" in the barrel

- 50% load: 3.4 grains, 960fps, 17400PSI, which is 50% of the max. Powder burns when bullet travels 1.8" in the barrel.

I agree with rcmodel that TiteGroup seems to be fast powder for the caliber. Appropriate powder burns 90-100% when bullet leaves the barrel. Anyway, paper has no chances with either of the above loads.

While there are two guessed numbers in the above calculations, it should not create too much problems: 7.62x25 is bottlenecked case, and relative case volume change with variances in bullet length and seating depth does not affect parameters as much as it does on short straight wall cases. Anyway, if you seat your bullet so that "OAL minus bullet length" is the same as in the above calculations, the calculated loads are going to be perfectly matching yours.

Needless to say, try to find an alternative source for the load to check mine.

I suppose Quickload could tell you how much TightGroup to use in a .300 Weatherby too?
But that doesn't mean you should do it.

If I can't find published 7.65 TOK load data using TightGroup from any of the major bullet makers, or the powder company that makes it?
I take that to mean it isn't a suitable and/or safe powder to use in the 7.65 TOK.

rc

Sure is does. I will not publish the load to prevent confusion. The load does not give max performance for the rifle. When loaded to max pressure it gives muzzle speed for 150gr bullet of only 2400 fps, while the appropriate powder gives 3500. This is more than two times difference in muzzle energy, which is significant.

98 grain Tok bullet with the proper powder flies 1280 fps. Titegroup can not push the bullet that fast, but the paper still has no chances with the powder.

The problem I see with using very fast powder for very high velocity & pressure is:
The old "Hitting a bowling ball with your fist" thing.

Shoving it with your palm will get it moving faster without hurting yourself in the process!

rc

I agree. Powder, whch is faster than optimal, can not provide the same performance.

Using faster powder, however, is acceptable, and even beneficial for light loads. Light load has lower pressures, and full-performance powder does not burn completely while bullet is in the barrel: smokeless powder burning speed decreases with lower barrel pressure of the light load. Light loads with performance powder show significant muzzle flash due to unburned powder.

For example, Titegroup becomes an optimal powder for the above parameters in Tokarev with 2.5 grains load. With the load it burns completely at the time when bullet leaves the barrel, pushing the bullet at 778 fps with max pressure of only 9800PSI. This is revolver speed for pure lead bullet, but I believe the Tok action will still function with this load.

I loaded the 7.62x25 round for use in a CZ-52 for a while. I used the 100gr Speer plinker half jacket with 7gr of Unique, for a good medium power load.
Finding the fired brass was the only problem that I encountered.


NCsmitty

100gr Speer plinker half jacket with 7gr of Unique, for a good medium power load.

Click to expand...

Hmm. Quickload says that Speer RN PLI 1805 100gr bullet over 7 grains of unique with 1.386" OAL (which is the max) gives 1457fps and 43600PSI. This is 125% of the max pressure for the caliber.

This is 125% of the max pressure for the caliber.

Click to expand...

That's probably why I couldn't find the brass.

Actually, that load had less felt recoil than factory S&B ammo. Go figure.

NCsmitty

Ability of the barrel to withstand powder pressure in the bore is proportional to width of the barrel walls, which is measured in calibers.

There are 9mm drop-in barrels for Tokarev pistol. Wall width of the 9mm barrel is about half of the 7.62x25, and the caliber is larger. With this in mind, 7.62x25 barrel should carry more than twice of the max pressure for 9mm. Nevertheless, SAAMI standard states that max pressure for the 7.62x25 is even smaller than the one for 9mm (34800 vs 35000 psi). I am not surprised that 125% 7.62x25 load does not have problems in 7.62x25 barrel.

The CZ-52 pistol is a very weak design. The cuts under the chamber to make room for the roller locking system, weaken the chamber. The heat treat is suspect in war produced weapons. Sometimes it was done properly, sometimes not. If not, the CZ-52 will let go when fed high pressure sub machine gun ammo. Or hand loads loaded up to the max. Just be careful!

The cz52 tends to also be undersprung or under locked if you will

I had both the CZ and a TOK at the same time and one thing I noted immediately is loadings that sent brass from the CZ into low earth orbit sometimes turned out to not be powerful enough to even cycle the tt33

CZ52

Just curious as to what war these were produced during? I thought that they weren't adopted until 1952.
Pat

Original TT was the main soviet semiautomatic handgun in 40s. It won WWII. With its clones, including CZ, it was in Vietnam - also, at the winning side.

helg said:

Original TT was the main soviet semiautomatic handgun in 40s. It won WWII. With its clones, including CZ, it was in Vietnam - also, at the winning side.

Click to expand...

Are you serious.

Hitlers folly on invading the soviet union, the 8th airforce bombing the fatherland back into the stone age, NUCLEAR WEAPONS

all worthless compared to the tt33

T34 and TT33 are slightly different weapons. Both have been good for the time, and have won the WWII.

I never heard about TT34. Is it the Soviet top secret weapon that is stronger than THE BOMB?

CZ52 is not a TT clone. I don't think it's a clone of anything actually. Don't fall into believing the hype about the 52's strength unless you don't need all your fingers. Wear safety glasses!

IIRC Accurate arms has 7.62x25 data. Might look around for it as I don't see it available on their website.

MetalMan52 said:

Just curious as to what war these were produced during? I thought that they weren't adopted until 1952.
Pat

Click to expand...

Cold War.

You might bug Clark. He likes to mess around with handloading.

Seriously. I'd wager he has all the published data for that round on hand.

The 7.62 TOK page in the Lee Manual lists loads for Accurate #5, #7, and #9 for five jacketed bullet weights (85, 86, 93, 100, and 110 gr.) No other powders or bullets are listed.

I can give you more specific data if you want.

Tinpig