Which school of thought do you fall into re: hunting w/o permission?

Do you OWN the game if you don't have a high fence, in the same way that the jewelry store owner owns the jewelry? If the game spends half its time on your neighbors land, then how is it that YOU own the game?

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I don't own the game, nobody "owns" the game. I do however own the land the game is on and I get to set the rules on that land. I also own the land under the river running through the property. I do not own the fish or the water, so float by and fish all you want, but don't go wading or having parties on my riverbank.

If your talking courtesy, the land owner should be courtious enough to post his land or at least be nice when he kicks you off. The hunter should make sure where he is and have permission to be there. I voted B in the poll because I live where there is a lot of public land and it may run onto private land without any signage indicating such. Lots of public land is cross fenced for livestock grazing so fences don't necessarily mean anything.

Out of curiosity, is your lease fenced?

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Yes. I am responding to your hypothetical on a moral basis, as requested in your OP. From a legal standpoint, I leased an entire ranch. From a moral standpoint, I am not going to hunt a stand or area that is being fed and supported by another hunter, much less on property that does not belong to me.

If the MORALITY of the issue is what is being questioned, then the wishes and rights of the owner must trump any other consideration. The way I understood your OP, we are not talking about straying onto unmarked land in error.

As for game not being owned property by the landowner, does that mean it would be OK to steal consigned items from an unlocked jewelry store?

In addition, many ranchers I know did, in fact, BUY the game animals on their land as breeder stock. How are you as a poacher going to tell the difference? Is the green tag in the ear going to immediatly convey a sense of morality & stay the trigger finger?

Do whatever you want, just be prepared to deal with the consequences of getting caught. Not everyone dials 911.

One final post & then I need to get back to work (stealing from my company at this point).

Why not just change the poll to ask a single question: Is it ever morally permissable to poach?

My answer is no.

Not everyone dials 911.

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OK, one more. This is not the right answer, but he is correct. I know a lot of ranchers that have the signs we have all laughed at: "poachers will be shot; survivors will be shot again".

It's a joke to most. It's not a joke to them.

If my family is in need of food I will poach and it will be morally right.

In Wyoming you need written permission to hunt on any land that you don't own. This is not enforced to the letter, but would be the tie breaker in court if there was a dispute over whether you have permission or not.

The defininition of POACHING in my mind is taking game illegally, i.e., after dark, using headlights or other lights to take the animal and/or taking an animal out of season or one which does NOT HAVE a season.

That has absolutely NOTHING TO DO with what I will do if I am hunting on a family or firend's property and I happen to come upon property that may belong to others.

If it is not posted, I will most likely go in. The only time I won't is if the person's house is right in plain view and/or if there are some kind of signs indicating PRIVATE PROPERTY, NO HUNTING, NO TRESSPASSING, or any other number of signs.

I DEFINATELY WON'T GO IN if the sign says KEEP OFF OR YOU WILL BE SHOT, SURVIVORS WILL BE SHOT AGAIN. That is one property I will absolutely stay away from. FAR AWAY, THAT IS!

If my family is in need of food I will poach and it will be morally right.

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Wrong. It might be necessary, and we all might do it, myself included. But have no illusions over that making it morally right. Someone has been wronged, and that makes it immoral. Ethics and morality are absolutes, and are not subject to justification.

Under what theory are letting people know you don't want them on your land

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Under the theory that I paid good money for it?

Seriously--if you leave your front door open on a hot day, are you failing to let people know you don't want them in your house by not closing the door or posting a sign?

If it's public, I'll let you know, either by sign or action (for example, running a business generally implies an invitation to come on my land to transact with me). If I haven't extended an invitation, though, there isn't one. The idea that I owe an affirmative duty--with cost to me, no less!--to say "hey, yeah, so I bought this place, but I actually bought it just for me, so would y'all please stay off" is kind of absurd.

I'm amazed at the selfish entitlement mentality some in this thread are displaying. And the issue isn't poaching, it's trespassing.

So put it this way. Is trespassing morally ok? If you answer yes, feel free to post your address so I can stop by (without your permission of course).

If my family is in need of food I will poach and it will be morally right.

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O rly? And if you broke into a house to steal money for food, that'd be moral too right? Couldn't our hypothetical criminal loser just, you know, get a job an earn money for food instead of stealing?

The defininition of POACHING in my mind is taking game illegally, i.e., after dark, using headlights or other lights to take the animal and/or taking an animal out of season or one which does NOT HAVE a season.

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You can add:

• Hunters who hunt without buying a hunting license, even during the correct season.
• Hunters who try and bag a buck when they only have a doe tag (and vice versa).
• Landowners who shoot the game that is on their land, without having purchased a license to do so.

If it is not posted, I will most likely go in.

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Of course, if poaching, in your mind, is taking game illegally, then the behavior you described there, is also poaching, in Colorado.

In Wisconsin, unless you are law enforcement, with probable cause, you need permission to enter any private land. Exceptions are meter readers and utility workers that are required to either stay on easements or take the most direct route when easements are not available.....and it is your responsibility to know who's land you are on......being lost or saying "I thought I was on so and so's land" don't cut it. Only time land needs to be posted is when it borders public land.........all other private lands are considered already posted against trespassing. Responsible hunters ask permission even when they know they can hunt. How else do you know that no one else is hunting there already and that your irresponsible traipsing thru the woods won't ruin someone else's hunt? This is the #1 reason most landowners refuse to give permission anymore......because of irresponsible azzholes.

Kevin77 said:

If my family is in need of food I will poach and it will be morally right.

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My wife and I need food, and many times we are hard pressed for money.
Does that mean that I can shoot a deer in my back yard in the middle of the night, for food?

I don't think so.

I will tell you a little story about a poacher here in California. We have a very popular ranch that has over 270,000 acres, it's called Tejon Ranch. To kill a Roosevelt bull elk its $20,000. I will also add they have some of the biggest bull elk on the planet (no joke!). When you pay to be a member they will give you a key that will unlock certain gates in the particular area you pay for (tags aren’t included with membership fee). There is a local business in town called Steirs, they sell motor homes. The owner of this business hunts all over the world and I absolutely hate the guy. When flying into Alaska (and I think most places) there is a law against hunting the same day you fly in. You must wait until the following day you land to actually hunt. Well this guy goes in and the day he lands shoots a bear. What happens? He gets caught and busted by the DFG. You think that's bad? Well a couple years later the guy goes on Tejon Ranch and poaches a bull elk. Turns out this bull elk was the world record (no bs)! It was all in our newspapers and might even reached your neck of the woods. This guy tries to report the record bull and makes up this story how he shot him in Colorado. Long story short the guides at Tejon knew that bull elk was missing, a case was put together, and sure enough the idiot got busted again. He was fined some astronomical number, but I'm pretty sure he's still hunting. Tell you the truth I can't stand people like that. Is it legal to shoot people who trespass on private property whether they are armed or not?

That won't work, because people define "poaching" differently, as is demonstrated by the poll results. No one is gonna say that poaching is ok, but some define this NOT as poaching, but rather legitimate hunting.

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Well, I reckon we aught to clear that confusion right up! Here is the Merriam Webster definition:

Poach:

intransitive verb
1 : to encroach upon especially for the purpose of taking something
2 : to trespass for the purpose of stealing game; also : to take game or fish illegally

The operative term in my view would be the last word--ILLEGALLY

CoRoMo said:

You can add:

• Hunters who hunt without buying a hunting license, even during the correct season.
• Hunters who try and bag a buck when they only have a doe tag (and vice versa).
• Landowners who shoot the game that is on their land, without having purchased a license to do so.

Of course, if poaching, in your mind, is taking game illegally, then the behavior you described there, is also poaching, in Colorado.

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I should clarify myself.
I will continue to hunt only if I believe that the land I am hunting on is part of the land I already have permission to hunt on. I always buy my licenses and always shoot only what is in season per my license(s). I would not consider shooting anything out of season unless I were dying of starvation.

So, when the lands not marked, how do you know exactly if you're on your land or not (ie 10' onto neighbors), cause according to the majority here, thats trespassing, probably poaching, and a significantly increased odds to be shoot.

Land boundaries are usually disputed when there are no fences or signs to make a clear boundary (unless a natural one exists).

If I have REASON TO BELIEVE that I'm trespassing, I won't do it.

I think that this varies from place to place. It is entirely possible here to be on someone's land and you'd have NO IDEA that you were. There are little parcels carved out in the middle of enormous swaths of National Forest, BLM land, etc.

So, there are times when you have REASON TO BELIEVE you are on public land unless you are informed otherwise by signage, cultivation, etc.

That's probably not at all true in Texas, with little public land. But it's true in Idaho.

The default assumptions about a piece of land with no signs, no fences, no farming, etc. would vary from place to place.

schlockinz said:

So, when the lands not marked, how do you know exactly if you're on your land or not (ie 10' onto neighbors), cause according to the majority here, thats trespassing, probably poaching, and a significantly increased odds to be shoot.

Land boundaries are usually disputed when there are no fences or signs to make a clear boundary (unless a natural one exists).

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Because I live in the middle of nowhere.
I live in a VERY rural area.
Also, the law states here that if you do not want any hunters on your land, it must be posted.

There are no grey areas, it's pretty cut and dry.

Hunt on my land and I catch you or find sign, I will do my best to introduce you to local law enforcement.

I would expect no less, if I were trespassing on someone else's property.

Forget about the game for a moment and just focus on the land use.


If you go into someones house uninvited and raid their fridge for bean dip and beer you've stolen that food from them

Hunting is a USE of the land, if you hunt someones property that they paid for and pay taxes on you've stolen that use from them no matter how minuscule the amount.

The morals involved are constant.


As to the LAW

Here in Arkansas it's illegal

Hunters on private property must have written permission from the landowner. Other regulations also apply.

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