Open site groups at 100 yards?

What is the more experienced shooters around here getting?

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Some of the guys here can shoot open sights amazingly well. Sadly, that group doesn't include me.

On a good day, I can shoot about a 3.5" group with open sights. I'm trying to tighten that up with more practice, and handloads.

With my Universal M1 carbine and my Arsenal AK47, both shooting Wolf ammo, 6 inches or so at 100y.

With open sights (no peeps/apertures allowed) then 3"-5" groups depending on the rifle.

Some guys/gals who are good and using aperture sights, you'd swear they were using scopes.

It also depends from what position you were doing your shooting (benchrest, offhand, prone, etc).

Looks very good with that rifle, ammo, and open sights.

Gotta ask, do you mean open as in non magnified? This is 100 yards, but using an EOTech, seated unsupported. It seems to help.



This was shot same position, but pre EOTech.



You have a good group, sir, something to be happy with. Someday I hope to get really good groups farther out.

First off, as a group, they are IRON sights.

OPEN sights refer to the notch and blade typically found on, say, an off-the-rack .30-30 or 870 slug gun (or a handgun).

APERTURE sights are what you find on an AR-15, M-1 Garand, M-1 Carbine, 1903A3s and target rifles. Also available as add-ons from many companies for lever actions, single shots, bolt actions, etc.

As a rule, OPEN sights are less precise than APERTURE sights. I can shoot about 2-2.5" from a bench at 100 yards with my Marlin 336. This is perfectly suitable for me, and I suspect close to the limit of what the rifle will actually do. I will add a Williams receiver sight at some point, to make it easier to use, but they won't do much to improve the actual accuracy of the carbine.

With APERTURE sights, such as my AR-15 match gun, I can hit a little over 2-MOA from a sling-supported prone position on a good day. I've seen smallbore prone shooters throw 10-shots through a hole smaller than the tip of my pinky finger at 50-yards, using the aperture-aperture target sights. From a benchrest with previously mentioned AR-15, I have seen groups go under 1-MOA when chronographing loads.

I have to concur with most of the others. Like Doubletap said that is a good group what what you're shooting. In my service days my M16a1 was pretty reliable, but grouped only 4-6" at 100M with issue ammo depending on the Lot#.

jim

20 shots at 100 yards with my "national match" service-rifle legal AR.
Handloads with Sierra Match King bullets.

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Open sights (not "sites")

I have several rifles that will shoot under 2" at 100y consistently. This is from a bench with a front rest only.
I've had a few that would hover around an inch or so, but my eyesight isn't that good anymore to do that on command.

Open sights (not "sites")

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Aperture or peep sights, not "open."

I don't know why this is harder to follow or less frequently explained than clip versus magazine.

A good rifleman should be able to shoot to similar levels of precision with both peep sights and moderate magnification scopes. The only appreciable difference (at the range) comes when using high magification target scopes. That said, I have done plenty of 1-2MOA shooting with peeps and one unbelievably accurate Winchester 1895 will do sub-MOA with its factory buckhorns.

W.E.G. Nice gun! A national match is on my list of builds or purchases. Prob buy that way its done right.

With my Browning 1885 in 45-70 I can generally keep 2.5-3" at 100, of course it has a tang mounted peep sight. My best rifle for shooting is an 1891 Mauser in 7.65x53, it has an added Williams peep and is consistantly under 1 moa at 100 yards with handloads. Of course it has a much longer sight radius than an AR, I can't shoot AR's with peeps nearly as well.





I know, lots of people are going to whine that 3 shot groups aren't really groups. Don't worry about it, I rarely would have the need to shoot one of my hunting rifles more than three times, so it works for me.

Shooting my latest Garand, an H & R (Peep, I know), I shot a 274/300 on a standard NRA 100 yard target. This was shooting standard Greek 1962 HXP and a standard Garand. I was told I need to shoot a 280 at 200 yards to be competitive. That was a 30 shot string with 5 shots in the x ring. I had two flyers (landed in the 5 ring, no zero score). This was 10 rounds kneeling, 10 shots prone, 10 shots from a bench. I will keep practicing.

my best match scores with my open site ar15 (on the small prone target not the standard target). at 100 yards it is 200-13x's out of 200 and at 200 yards it is 200-17x's. that is fired in compitition prone with sling support. lots of clean 200's and some of my best groups have been 199's with that one dang bad shot for a 9. Never have shot a 200 at 600 yards with my open sited ar15 service rifle but quite a few 198's and a few 199's. dang wind and light.

I like Milsurps, especially MosinNagats.
I can easily shoot 2 inch groups with my M-39's, and most all the rifles I have kept, as I am only interested in guns that are accurate, or just plain "Interesting" for some reason or another....
I try to sit and shoot as much as possible, but sometimes its frehanded, at a moving target......
The big variation, I find, is in ammo quality and consistancy.

Czeck light ball through my 41 SAKO is a killer combo that I use to make a living.

I make 60% of my shooting at under 100 yards, but head shots out to 150yards isnt hard if the animal is standing there. I will move to the chest/neck out to 300 yards, sometimes a little more, again, if the animals are standing still. Beyond that I just dont shoot, 'cept for fun at targets, not animals.
With iron sights on M-39, Ive gotten into a rythem and dropped bullets into an oil drum set 800 paces far out on the ice......like 3 foot groups , and quite a few misses~~LOL!!~~

wow; that really depends on so much. I would say though, that if you are a competent shooter, with a decently accurate rifle, a 3 to 4 inch group should be regular. I have a mosin m38 that is extremely accurate for some reason, and with the monster 205 grainers, it will do an moa group, or near abouts, at 100. I also have a couple of rimfires; a super old remmy 241 gs, that is a shorts only model, and a 17mach2 marlin 717, that is also a semi auto-- that both at 50 yards, can just about punch 1 hole. lemme show you an open site group at 50 yards, with the 717;



pretty darn good for a stock, untweeked semi, huh?

Try taking some of that Guatemala ammo and replacing the factory pill with a match bullet like the Sierra 52 BTHP. I did that with some Norinco 223 and had amazing results, well under 1 MOA.

YMMV

Good Luck

OpelBlitz said:

It also depends from what position you were doing your shooting (benchrest, offhand, prone, etc).

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Yep, this is a huge factor, there are so many variables, even in each and every one of those positions. Unless the poster of the group describes exactly what the position was, even what the weather was, rate of fire, etc etc etc these comparisons are all a bit moot, imo. Its not enough just to state rifle and ammo type.

With practice...a peep sight can be almost as good as a scope.

If the target is clearly defined - like a bullseye - the peep and globe iron sight setup does not take a back seat to a scope. Lots of smallbore shooters do as well with irons as scope. Many BPCR shooters do better, but they are limited to 6X and 19th century adjustable mounts for the scope.

True...the target itself plays major role.