hot 38 spl ammo
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MIL-DOT
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As a reincarnated .38 & .357 fan,I've read it mentioned here numerous times lately. The search function, while often uncooperative and unproductive, is still a great place to start. 
Lucky Derby
Member
It's in the Colt Official Police that is next to my bed right now.
jfh
Member.
I've shot and chronographed the BB 20A (the round you describe) in a few different revolvers--a S&W M&P 340 (1&7/8"), a 640 (2&1/8"), and a S&W 60 / 3". It did an honest 1020 fps from the 1 & 7/8" barrel.
I now keep it in the bedside gun (686 / 4"), and if I carry the 640, I will load it in that one. I consider it too hot for the lightweight 340, however.
Jim H.
I now keep it in the bedside gun (686 / 4"), and if I carry the 640, I will load it in that one. I consider it too hot for the lightweight 340, however.
Jim H.
According to the product information page, that's the velocity you could expect out of a 2" barrel. Out of a 3" or 4" barrel, its exterior ballistics would approach what you could expect of a 165 grain .40 S&W load out of a full-sized pistol.
It would not be entirely unfair to say that it is effectively a light .357 Magnum load at .38 Special+P pressure. I haven't tried it myself, but I imagine that its muzzle blast must be something fierce.
jfh
Member.
The muzzle blast is quite reasonable, actually. The powder has a flash suppressant in it. And, I do suspect that the pressure runs at least 24,000 PSI, based on calculations some of us have done and and other powders / recipes we tried.
Jim H.
Jim H.
saltydog452
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Just me, but the 158 SWCHP in+ P flavor or, preferably in std pressure, from Remington suits me just dandy.
I don't see the point in trying to make a 'Special' into a 'Magnum'.
slty
I don't see the point in trying to make a 'Special' into a 'Magnum'.
slty
Vern Humphrey
Member
Before I start feeding my Colt DS a steady diet of this stuff, I'll buy a Ruger SP 101. The way I see it, I'll have two guns that way, instead of one ruined wall-hanger.
Radagast
Member
17000 PSI for standard pressure, 20000 PSI for Plus P. .357 Magnum is 36000 PSI.
ArchAngelCD
Member.
Sorry but those numbers are incorrect. The current SAAMI pressure limits are a little lower, 17,000 PSI for .38 Special, 18,500 PSI for .38 Special +P and 35,000 PSI for the .357 Magnum.
http://www.leverguns.com/articles/saami_pressures.htm
Years back the numbers were 20,000 PSI for the .38 Special +P and 40,000 PSI for the .357 Magnum.
Radagast
Member
ArchangelCD:
Thanks for setting me straight.
Thanks for setting me straight.
Last time I checked max SAAMI allowed for the 38 was 21,500. Yes, +P is at 18,500 but max is 21.500.
I suspect the Buffalo Bore load is right at that figure. I seriously DOUBT it exceeds that pressure. No manufacturer would sell ammo that exceeded SAAMI guidelines due to liability concerns.
I suspect the Buffalo Bore load is right at that figure. I seriously DOUBT it exceeds that pressure. No manufacturer would sell ammo that exceeded SAAMI guidelines due to liability concerns.
will the real 38SPL+P please stand up
38SPL+P per SAAMI
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From my 2004 Post over at the Beartooth Shooters Forum:
Will the Real .38+P Please Stand Up:
===============================================
I decided to call Ken Green at SAAMI for the scoop on this +P data discrepancy. I learned that the .38Spl. +P standard had indeed been changed from 18,500 psi to 20,000 psi when ammunition manufacturers could not provide the performance levels demanded by consumers. The confusion apparently arose because the change occured after the publication of the current ANSI standards manual in 1993. I then sent an e-mail to Accurate Arms and Alliant to let them know what I had learned. Looks like some +P data will need to be updated.
Ken Green also pointed out that the current SAAMI MAP pressure for the .38 Spl. +P is 20,000 psi or 20,000 cup. That while the two systems often give different values in this case they read the same.
===================================================================
The previous +P standard was set at 22,400 C.U.P.
Both standards are, to my knowledge, still valid under SAMMI standards. There is no way to readily convert C.U.P. to P.S.I. But it is clear from the load data that the C.U.P. standard was set at a higher pressure that the P.S.I. replacement. I also understand that a +P+ standard of 21,500 PSI was rejected and there is no SAMMI standard for +P+ ammunition in this caliber.
====================================================================
I sent an e-mail to Tim Sundles of Buffalo Bore Ammunition... I asked if the Heavy 158 LSWCHP .38 +P ammunition was loaded within the 20,000 psi voluntary standard set by the Sporting Arms and Ammunition Manufacturers Institute (SAMMI). He indicated the pressure of this load ran about 22,000 psi. He also said that any gun rated for +P was ok with Buffalo Bore ammo, including alloy and titanium guns.
Very interesting.
http://shootersforum.com/showthread.htm?t=11047&highlight="will+real+.38+stand
38SPL+P per SAAMI
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From my 2004 Post over at the Beartooth Shooters Forum:
Will the Real .38+P Please Stand Up:
===============================================
I decided to call Ken Green at SAAMI for the scoop on this +P data discrepancy. I learned that the .38Spl. +P standard had indeed been changed from 18,500 psi to 20,000 psi when ammunition manufacturers could not provide the performance levels demanded by consumers. The confusion apparently arose because the change occured after the publication of the current ANSI standards manual in 1993. I then sent an e-mail to Accurate Arms and Alliant to let them know what I had learned. Looks like some +P data will need to be updated.
Ken Green also pointed out that the current SAAMI MAP pressure for the .38 Spl. +P is 20,000 psi or 20,000 cup. That while the two systems often give different values in this case they read the same.
===================================================================
The previous +P standard was set at 22,400 C.U.P.
Both standards are, to my knowledge, still valid under SAMMI standards. There is no way to readily convert C.U.P. to P.S.I. But it is clear from the load data that the C.U.P. standard was set at a higher pressure that the P.S.I. replacement. I also understand that a +P+ standard of 21,500 PSI was rejected and there is no SAMMI standard for +P+ ammunition in this caliber.
====================================================================
I sent an e-mail to Tim Sundles of Buffalo Bore Ammunition... I asked if the Heavy 158 LSWCHP .38 +P ammunition was loaded within the 20,000 psi voluntary standard set by the Sporting Arms and Ammunition Manufacturers Institute (SAMMI). He indicated the pressure of this load ran about 22,000 psi. He also said that any gun rated for +P was ok with Buffalo Bore ammo, including alloy and titanium guns.
Very interesting.
http://shootersforum.com/showthread.htm?t=11047&highlight="will+real+.38+stand
Last edited:
The Buffalo Bore load under discussion here is the only factory load currently available that duplicates the old 38/44 or 38 HV load brought out in 1930 for the S&W Heavy Duty and Outdoorsman. The BB offering will deliver an honest 1150 fps from a 4" revolver barrel.
Dave
Dave
will the real 38SPL+P please stand up
38SPL+P per SAAMI
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From my 2004 Post over at the Beartooth Shooters Forum:
Will the Real .38+P Please Stand Up:
===============================================
I decided to call Ken Green at SAAMI for the scoop on this +P data discrepancy. I learned that the .38Spl. +P standard had indeed been changed from 18,500 psi to 20,000 psi when ammunition manufacturers could not provide the performance levels demanded by consumers. The confusion apparently arose because the change occured after the publication of the current ANSI standards manual in 1993. I then sent an e-mail to Accurate Arms and Alliant to let them know what I had learned. Looks like some +P data will need to be updated.
Ken Green also pointed out that the current SAAMI MAP pressure for the .38 Spl. +P is 20,000 psi or 20,000 cup. That while the two systems often give different values in this case they read the same.
http://shootersforum.com/showthread.htm?t=11047&highlight="will+real+.38+stand
38SPL+P per SAAMI
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From my 2004 Post over at the Beartooth Shooters Forum:
Will the Real .38+P Please Stand Up:
===============================================
I decided to call Ken Green at SAAMI for the scoop on this +P data discrepancy. I learned that the .38Spl. +P standard had indeed been changed from 18,500 psi to 20,000 psi when ammunition manufacturers could not provide the performance levels demanded by consumers. The confusion apparently arose because the change occured after the publication of the current ANSI standards manual in 1993. I then sent an e-mail to Accurate Arms and Alliant to let them know what I had learned. Looks like some +P data will need to be updated.
Ken Green also pointed out that the current SAAMI MAP pressure for the .38 Spl. +P is 20,000 psi or 20,000 cup. That while the two systems often give different values in this case they read the same.
http://shootersforum.com/showthread.htm?t=11047&highlight="will+real+.38+stand
Well, Buffalo Bore offers .40 S&W+P loads.
I thought that SAAMI didn't offer guidelines on .40 S&W+P.
The_Shootist
Member
Hmmm
All I know is that when I fired the "heavy" .38 spl + P BB load out of my SP 101 it gave a good smack to the palm leading me to think I had fired a medium .357 rd. This would be a good SD round in my 4" 686+ I think.
I figure that firing this round out of my 642 would be more than just vaguely unpleasant. Thats why I carry/practice with the "standard pressure" 158 gr BB load . Those still give me the impression of a +P round though.
All I know is that when I fired the "heavy" .38 spl + P BB load out of my SP 101 it gave a good smack to the palm leading me to think I had fired a medium .357 rd. This would be a good SD round in my 4" 686+ I think.
I figure that firing this round out of my 642 would be more than just vaguely unpleasant. Thats why I carry/practice with the "standard pressure" 158 gr BB load . Those still give me the impression of a +P round though.
To the best of my knowledge:
22,400 C.U.P. is still a valid SAMMI standard for the .38spl+P round, as such the C.U.P. standard exceeds the P.S.I. standard.
Just to muddy the water further:
I also understand the European CIP pressure standard uses 150 MPa, or 21,756 psi for all .38 Specials and has no + ratings of any kind
22,400 C.U.P. is still a valid SAMMI standard for the .38spl+P round, as such the C.U.P. standard exceeds the P.S.I. standard.
Just to muddy the water further:
I also understand the European CIP pressure standard uses 150 MPa, or 21,756 psi for all .38 Specials and has no + ratings of any kind
True enough, but my point was that SAAMI, to the best of my knowledge, does not define .40 S&W+P, only standard-pressure .40 S&W, and there may be good reasons for that (e.g. the caliber may be pretty much maxed-out as it is with regard to safety, at least according to their standards). Buffalo Bore decided to exceed SAAMI's guidelines for .40 S&W--the highest-pressure guidelines they currently offer--by making up their own .40 S&W+P. By de facto convention people expect "+P" ammo to be defined by SAAMI, while "+P+" is generally understood to indicate pressures beyond SAAMI guidelines. While technically Buffalo Bore is not violating anything SAAMI actually defines, the fact remains that some may be mislead to believe that there is such a thing as an official industry-standard .40 S&W+P, which there is not.
I'm not trying to say this was deliberate on the part of Buffalo Bore, nor do I have anything against a small company that manufactures high quality products (we need more of them and should support them), but it should definitely be noted. If they had labeled it "+P+" then this probably wouldn't be an issue. Then again, people might expect even more out of the ammo, so maybe it would be best for them to simply make a note in their product descriptions regarding the lack of industry-standard +P guidelines in this specific caliber. This isn't about CYA, but properly informing consumers. They already include a couple of warnings and an actual CYA statement in their .40 S&W+P product descriptions, anyway.
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