Arsenal AK74 or HK USP 9MM

dont see what the point of getting a full sized 9mm USP is is you've got a perfectly good glock , get the AK74

Both are a waste of money.

You've already got a Glock (and if you didn't have it, you could get another fully-functional sidearm from a reputable company that doesn't hate you and overcharges for everything with their name on it).

Anything "Arsenal" is over priced and over hyped. You can get a Century (I know, I know) Bulgarian AK74 for around half the amount you list and spend the rest on ammo.
Crazy thought? It'll work just as well as the Arsenal will.

nalioth said:

Anything "Arsenal" is over priced and over hyped. You can get a Century (I know, I know) Bulgarian AK74 for around half the amount you list and spend the rest on ammo.
Crazy thought? It'll work just as well as the Arsenal will.

Click to expand...

I've heard this complaint before, but I've never heard an Arsenal owner complain about fit, finish, or function. Doesn't mean other stuff won't work, but Arsenal makes a good product.

philpost said:

nalioth said:

Anything "Arsenal" is over priced and over hyped. You can get a Century (I know, I know) Bulgarian AK74 for around half the amount you list and spend the rest on ammo.
Crazy thought? It'll work just as well as the Arsenal will.

Click to expand...

I've heard this complaint before, but I've never heard an Arsenal owner complain about fit, finish, or function. Doesn't mean other stuff won't work, but Arsenal makes a good product.

Click to expand...

You don't hear Ferrari owners complain about their cars, either, but they're still just transportation from point A to point B.

Aside from the cosmetics, Arsenal products are no better than any other functional AK.

If you think differently, their marketing techniques have succeeded with you.

I mostly agree with nalioth about the Arsenal rifles. OTOH, I've got 2 of them and Arsenal doeas get the details right: Interior of the gas block is chromed, gas piston is riveted in place instead of welded, and the finish is paint over parkerizing. If it's important to you, The SLR-10xF rifles have the only folding stock that's worth having.

Yes, the Arsenal paint can be removed with inappropriate chemicals, but so can other military finishes. Just try soaking your AR in oven cleaner overnight. (Don't actually try that, it'll eat right thru the aluminum)

If you want a rifle that you don't need to screw around with to 'make it right' the Arsenal rifles are good. If you like replacing parts and refinishing a brand new rifle, get the CAI product.

BSW

briansmithwins said:

I mostly agree with nalioth about the Arsenal rifles. OTOH, I've got 2 of them and Arsenal doeas get the details right: Interior of the gas block is chromed, gas piston is riveted in place instead of welded, and the finish is paint over parkerizing. If it's important to you, The SLR-10xF rifles have the only folding stock that's worth having.

Yes, the Arsenal paint can be removed with inappropriate chemicals, but so can other military finishes. Just try soaking your AR in oven cleaner overnight. (Don't actually try that, it'll eat right thru the aluminum)

If you want a rifle that you don't need to screw around with to 'make it right' the Arsenal rifles are good. If you like replacing parts and refinishing a brand new rifle, get the CAI product.

BSW

Click to expand...

"Making it right" is your opinion.

There are hundreds of thousands of Romanian imports out there going strong, so obviously the things you mention don't bring any negatives.

If Mr. Ruger and Mr. Sturm had followed this line of thought (building guns "the old way"), their company would never have existed.

Yes because badly built guns are good enough right?
Century guns are very hit and miss and the reasons why are well documented.
Badly cut mag wells. Out of spec receivers. Badly done trunnions. canted Front sights, and last but not least bad rivets.

These are not a matter of opinion or speculation.

Azizza said:

Yes because badly built guns are good enough right?
Century guns are very hit and miss and the reasons why are well documented.

Click to expand...

Are you referring to guns imported by Century, or built by Century. Please be specific.
If you're discussing Century imports, please tell me how just adding their import marks makes a gun "hit or miss".

Azizza said:

Yes because badly built guns are good enough right?
Century guns are very hit and miss and the reasons why are well documented.
Badly cut mag wells. Out of spec receivers. Badly done trunnions. canted Front sights, and last but not least bad rivets.

Click to expand...

Have you personally encountered these issues, or are you just repeating something that's been floating around the 'net from years ago? Again, are you referring to Century-imported or Century-produced guns?

All Kalashnikovs have canted parts. They all have mag wobble. Most of the time, these "issues" are unnoticeable, but they're there (and this includes Arsenal products).

Yes I have seen those things first hand as well as listening to comments from people who know a lot more than I do. Mr. Hackathorn has a lot to say about AKs, I tend to listen to him in class since he knows what he is talking about. At our last class I didn't see a single Century. In fact most everyone there had Arsenal or better. And all AKs do NOT have canted or badly fitting parts. In fact that seems to be isolated to the badly made ones.

I can run down to Kieslers tomorrow and go through 20 Century AKs. And of those 20 I bet I could find problems that need to be fixed on 17 or 18 of them. Heck most of them don't even have Chrome lined barrels.

Azizza said:

I can run down to Kieslers tomorrow and go through 20 Century AKs. And of those 20 I bet I could find problems that need to be fixed on 17 or 18 of them. Heck most of them don't even have Chrome lined barrels.

Click to expand...

Again, are you discussing "Century-imported" or "Century-produced"?

I can guarantee you'll never find a Century-produced AK with a chrome lined barrel. They've never used them in production. That doesn't make it a "bad" rifle, just not a milspec one (which, if you stop and think about it, NO AK sold in the USA is milspec).

The Century-imported WASRs OTOH, do have chrome lined barrels.

. . . and "problems" for you may not mean a hill of beans to anyone else (IOW, they may not affect functionality). This is an issue with some "purists", as they want their weapons to be (as close to) exactly the same as a military AK from the Izhmash factory.

"Bad rivets" - "bad" as in cosmetics, or are they missing? If the rivets are holding the gun together, who cares what they look like?
"Out of spec receivers" - Perhaps you're referring to some mystery Century-produced AK. I've never heard about this.
"Badly done trunnions" - I've never heard this one, either.

C'mon, be more specific with your claims.

I've owned a Century and an Arsenal along the way, though both were 7.62x39. The Century had the Tapco trigger pack installed incorrectly with the trigger occasionally failing to reset -- quick fix once diagnosed. The Arsenal had a canted front site that wouldn't zero at 25 meters and was still grouping about 6" left with the windage maxed out. Again, not a huge problem to correct.

Going back to the OP's original question, the long gun makes sense to me, regardless of the specific manufacturer, if the issue is a well rounded gun cabinet. For the same budget, an AR is an option as well, though that's obviously it's own debate that's been beaten to death a time or two already.

Ho much more specific do you want?
When Century imports parts they have a guy sitting there making receivers for the kits to go in. I have seen them vary by as much as .1 inch from one to the next. I have seen rivets witch move freely back and forth in the receiver. I have seen triggers so far off from where they should be that they bind up.

I am not talking about milspec. I am talking about reliability and function. I have never seen an out of spec Siaga that would not function. I have seen it of Century. I have never seen any other brand except century have HALF A FOOT of wobble at the base of the magazine.

Why are you so determined to defend them?

Azizza said:

Ho much more specific do you want?
When Century imports parts they have a guy sitting there making receivers for the kits to go in. I have seen them vary by as much as .1 inch from one to the next. I have seen rivets witch move freely back and forth in the receiver. I have seen triggers so far off from where they should be that they bind up.

I am not talking about milspec. I am talking about reliability and function. I have never seen an out of spec Siaga that would not function. I have seen it of Century. I have never seen any other brand except century have HALF A FOOT of wobble at the base of the magazine.

Why are you so determined to defend them?

Click to expand...

I want to get on the same page as you.

Century has it's name on two types of Kalashnikov - the ones it imports and the ones it manufactures.

Which one are you referring to?

Anyways, back to the OP's question ... at the end of the day, it depends on what you want. If you AK-type rifle in that price range, I'd go with an SGL-21 (Saiga) or an Arsenal. I went with the SGL-21, and am pleased with it, and would recommend it.

I have had several AKs (Romak-1, Romak-2, Romy G Nodak kit, Century Bulgarian, SGL-21). The only clunker in the bunch was the Century, which I disposed of. The rest I have kept.

If you want another full sized pistol, go for the USP if it suits you. I was looking at the USP Compact, but it just did not feel right in my hand (the only HK pistol I've stuck with is the P7).

I have the Arsenal AK74 and it is sweet. I had another one before that was not as good as this one so there is some variance between individual examples. I have not had an HK 9mm but that would be sweet for plinking or defense. I also have a Saiga 5.45 rifle I shortened the stock and put a Russian KO 4X24 illuminated scope on a Belarus mount on there and this is a neat little bang around rifle. Thinking about camo-ing it but not sure how to do that yet.

Might not hurt to wait a bit on the Arsenal AK - maybe K-var will run another special sometime - their sale on SLG's pushed me over the fence to get one of those.

I previously owned a Century WASR, although I'll quantify here that I did NOT sell it because of its problems. I sold it because I was offered a fair price from a friend.

The magazine that came with the gun was one of only two magazines that fit in the magazine well. The other was a 75 round drum.

Bulgarian waffle mags (my preferred magazine for AKs) did not fit. Chinese magazines from my MAK-90 did not fit. Hungarian 20 round magazines did not fit. I had to dremel out the magazine well myself.

The receiver cover was also twisted to the point that it could not be replaced onto the receiver by hand after field stripping. I had to use a rubber mallet to set it into place. The rear sight spring had also lost much of its tension for some reason, and the entire rear sight could be flipped straight up with your little finger with no effort.

I purchased an Arsenal SGL-21 in about February this year. It had NONE of these problems. Magazines fit tightly. The sights were dead on right out of the box. Pulling back the bolt handle felt smooth as glass in comparison, and I didn't even realize the WASR-10 bolt was gritty until I handled the Arsenal. There was completely no doubt about it that the SGL-21 is the superior rifle, and the extra cost does give you extra quality.

RX-178 said:

I purchased an Arsenal SGL-21 in about February this year. It had NONE of these problems. Magazines fit tightly. The sights were dead on right out of the box. Pulling back the bolt handle felt smooth as glass in comparison, and I didn't even realize the WASR-10 bolt was gritty until I handled the Arsenal. There was completely no doubt about it that the SGL-21 is the superior rifle, and the extra cost does give you extra quality.

Click to expand...

The same can be said for a standard Saiga, but it has no extra costs.

There is the extra cost and labor to make it 922(R) compliant.

Otherwise it's illegal to use a standard capacity magazine in the weapon.

The same can be said for a standard Saiga, but it has no extra costs.

Click to expand...

And no extra features either. Some people don't feel inclined to own a neutered sks look alike or inclined to spend the time to convert it either.

Sorry I am just now getting back to this. I have been busy.

First off Arsenal guns are Saigas. So I am not sure what you mean in your last post.

As for which guns I am talking about.
Not sure which is which. Most of my experience has been with the 1166s, 1405s, and 1496s. (is it sad that I remember the exact models) Wow I sold way to many of those things back in the day.

RX-178 said:

There is the extra cost and labor to make it 922(R) compliant.

Click to expand...

If you do the 922r conversion yourself (and going to the extreme - even a gas block / front sight block change is doable by Joe Sixpack), you'll save lots of money over the price of the Arsenal Saiga.

Arsenal has a nice racket going. They serve a very tasty kool-aid to maintain it.

Since news coming out of Arsenal Inc throwing their endorsment to Harry Reid in the upcoming election, I can't say I would buy one of their products ever again.

I currently own an Arsenal AK in 5.45x39 but may now sell the thing because of this. I can't support a company that supports someone trying to destroy America.....