Need my first AR-15 advice!

You also have to consider that LEO and military that use ARs in close quarters aren't alone. They train and act as a group. In the dead of night when someone may be in your home and you're going down a three foot wide hallway, by yourself, with a 90* turn coming up, having two feet of protrusion sticking out in front of you gives the bad guy a lot to grab on to. This is the point where he could take it away from you and kill you with it. Home defense isn't like war. In home defense, it's not a bad idea to have a free hand to defend yourself with or to avert an attack while you employ your fire arm. When something like that happens, it happens FAST. It's hard to throw your off hand up to back someone off when you have both hands holding on to a rifle. If you come across a guy that has 100lbs on you and he's too close to shoot with a rifle, you're probably gonna lose.

I just read where someone posted the original commercial AR15 being by Colt and the rest being copies.. LOL. Being a "copy" doesn't make it of lesser quality, and most of them are not. The FN Herstal M16, compared to a Colt M16, is more accurate, IME.

Besides, many other companies sell AR's which are MADE for the end user already prepared for more versatile use than Colt's, and are actually designed by experienced warriors.

It doesn't really matter a whole lot though. The only real different between AR's is in the receivers and moving parts and the barrel. Everything else can be easily changed out.

TonyAngel said:

You also have to consider that LEO and military that use ARs in close quarters aren't alone. They train and act as a group. In the dead of night when someone may be in your home and you're going down a three foot wide hallway, by yourself, with a 90* turn coming up, having two feet of protrusion sticking out in front of you gives the bad guy a lot to grab on to. This is the point where he could take it away from you and kill you with it. Home defense isn't like war. In home defense, it's not a bad idea to have a free hand to defend yourself with or to avert an attack while you employ your fire arm. When something like that happens, it happens FAST. It's hard to throw your off hand up to back someone off when you have both hands holding on to a rifle. If you come across a guy that has 100lbs on you and he's too close to shoot with a rifle, you're probably gonna lose.

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A good sling is a good idea for a HD carbine. We practice weapon retention in my dept and a big step back and down pretty much always brings the muzzle in line with the guy grabbing your rifle.

I'm curious why no one mentioned Rock River Arms. (Or did I miss it?) I have two of them, one military style and the other a bull barrel varmint gun. Impeccable performance/reliability and they are very well made and reasonably priced, particularly vs. Colt or Noveske. If you get a price quote from Noveske, be sure you're sitting down.
As for in home defense I rely on my Mossberg 500 with a nice mix of 00 and Slug. This will stop any threat, though inside the home collateral dry wall damage may be greater than with a rifle or pistol.

AR-15 choices

After having a couple of Colt AR's over the years- a shorty SP1 and an HBAR, I decided I wanted something new and different. My dealer got in a Stag and a Spikes Tactical in the M4 configuration. I chose the Stag because the trigger crispness and overall fit impressed me a bit more; but, I think either would make a fine choice. I also got a complete Spikes lower to make a dedicated .22LR AR-15 later. Good luck with your choice. WB

I'm curious why no one mentioned Rock River Arms.

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Because they are overpriced, and cut way to many corners. I would never recommend a RRA to a person looking for a defensive carbine.

Really, ARIZZA? Consider the following.
Noveske - $2200 and up
DPMS - $900 and up.
Rock River - $675 and up
As far as workmanship goes if you have a DPMS notice the light gap between the upper and lower. You won't find that on the RR or the Noveske. My RR AR's have had over 3500 rounds run through them, both .223 and 5.56 NATO with no malfunctions or broken parts. I consider Noveske the top of the line and if I could afford one without a divorce I'd get one. I consider DPMS the bottom of the line base on workmanship/machining tolerances alone.

No matter what you do, find the "Chart" and bone up on it. Left is good.

Lower tier on the chart - RRA, DPMS, etc.

Mid Tier - S&W (but high quality)

High Tier - DD, Colt, BCM, Noveske, and I should mention SPIKES.

High Tier means that they meet Milspec either close or 100%. Milspec does mean something - better components and features on the RIFLE itself.

Spikes - $800 for a Milspec rifle.

DD can be had for less than $1000 and WITH a Cold Hammer Forged barrel.

The latter two would be very good for starters.

Smith makes a good rifle, but a bit less in the milspec category.

My 2 cents are a Daniel defense upper and either assemble or buy your lower. You should be able to get this setup for around 750 or so if you do your shopping...

I drank some BCM koolaid and it is good.

buzzg, look at BCM... You can get one for $900, not much more than a RRA equipped similarly. Like Jaybird said, their koolaid is good!

Not knocking your RRA but today you can get a milspec AR steal with BCM.

By HGUNHNTR:
Don't listen to the folks that say "if you buy brand xyz you are paying for the name", in fact you are typically paying for the quality represented in the brand.

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It's generally true, if you're talking complete rifles, but not so, if you're talking lower receiver only. For example, there's nothing a $199 Noveske lower can do that a $90 Spike's Tactical lower cannot do.

^ I agree, there are definitley exceptions to the rule. Just be wary of folks that like to bash high end firearms because they have a personal bias stemming from the fact they can't afford them.

The inverse of that is true also, people like to bash low end firearms as being beneath them.

Ignore brand names, do some research and see what you come up with. In my instance and price range, the decision came down to BCM and Spikes. I went with Spikes because they were offering a 10% discount at the time.

C-grunt said:

A good carbine has many good atributes that make it a better home defense weapon compared to a handgun.

1. Easier to make accurate shots with a long gun
2. Way more powerful
3. Easy to manipulate a light on the weapon at the ready
4. A good hollow point or soft point has LESS penetration through building material if you miss.
5. Easier and faster follow up shots if needed.
6. Will penetrate body armor if the bad guys have it on.

Im not saying that a handgun is a bad choice and you always have to evaluate your own situation, skill and experience to find what works best for you.

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I disagree. Most home-defense situations occur at no more than 15 yards, and more likely closer than 7 yards. In all actuality a shotgun is the best home defense weapon, followed by a pistol, and then a rifle. You don't necessarily want a high-powered weapon because if the bullet continues on its path (once it's passed or penetrated the bad guy), and you hit someone else, you're liable. A shotgun won't go past a wall (or if it does, it won't go far), and a pistol is easier to wield in tight quarters.

Depending on where you live, you may or may not be legally allowed to pursue a perp off your property, so a long range shot isn't in the cards for you. Even if it was, if the guy is runnig away, there's no real point in pursuing (or shooting) him. That's a job for the cops.

Considering all that, if all you have is a carbine, it's "better than a stick", that's for dang sure.

Please do not discount some of the smaller guys out there either. such as
ar15 performance and bison armory. Great reps on some other sites and they are either semi custom or custom weapons. Just all depends on what you want or can afford. Most all the brands mentioned before are about as good as the next. Some may have a better fit and finish than the others.

I say just go and handle some of them and see what you like or don't like about them with some hands on feel.

briang2ad said:

No matter what you do, find the "Chart" and bone up on it. Left is good.

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Ignore "the chart" as well. It weights all selections and options equally (when they're anything but), and doesn't really cover all circumstances for someone buying assembled rifles.

Bushmaster are great rifles, i have a XM15E2S , i havent had any issues with it and i have 2K rounds thru it- i staked my BCG a little better and its golden.

Ruger SR556 are good also they can run very dirty like an AK and shoot way better.

Stag is starting to make great rifles for the price , IF i can afford another AR it would be a Stag.

Ignore "the chart" as well. It weights all selections and options equally (when they're anything but), and doesn't really cover all circumstances for someone buying assembled rifles.

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I don't think you understand the reasoning behind Rob's Chart.

The chart isn't for casual shooters, it isn't for varmint hunters, and it isn't for people just wanting a range toy. Rob put together the chat for people looking for equipment that came close to or exceeded the requirements set forth for the M4 Carbine.

From the OPs description of what he wants the gun for it seems like looking at the chart and understanding what the parts mean would be very beneficial to him.

It shows why guns like Bushmaster, DPMS, OLY, and others are not a good choice for some people. More importantly it doesn't "weigh" anything. It only provides data.

The inverse of that is true also, people like to bash low end firearms as being beneath them

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Don't confuse this for having a need or want for quality, and then choosing it. I need a reliable, accurate handgun for hunting. I'm not about to buy a Hi-point, and it isn't because I think they are "beneath me", it is because they don't provide the features and quality that I require in a hunting handgun.

azizza writes:

It shows why guns like Bushmaster, DPMS, OLY, and others are not a good choice for some people. More importantly it doesn't "weigh" anything. It only provides data.

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if its ok i would respectfully suggest that it isnt accurate 100% of the time (although i think it is accurate more often than not)

as an example i have 2 samples of bushmaster carbines that are not built as the chart would suggest. (it should be noted that these rifles were for some reason unknown to me, built during the awb, but not in compliance, as if possibly built for LE)

they have properly staked gas keys (i have pics if anyone would like to see them, and will not take a request to see them as a challenge of my opinion, lol) they have black extractor inserts, they have the shrouded firing pin bolt carriers (wasnt that one of the things that many bushmasters have lacked?)

i have no answer for why mine seem to be different than the reports i hear, unless it is because mine are a2 hbar models, 16" barrels

please do not take as disrespect or a challenge. just the way mine are.

i have a friend that has the bushmaster orc. i should have a good look at his and see if its the same

(but i have a strong feeling it is not the same as mine after reading all the reports)

EDIT: i have also noticed that both mine have staked castle nuts, and the extractor spring has 5 coils. (actually, its not the castly nut that has been deformed, but metal from an adjacent piece has been rolled into one of the notches of the castlenut, i assume this is "staking the castlenut?)

I decided on a Stag and I havene't looked back yet. Absolutly everything I could have ask for in reliability and quality. Other than that I would also consider Rock River and S&W. No need to spend ons of cash if you just want a good solid dependable AR. The top tier are fantastic Rifles, but you really need to ask yourself what you need from it.

if its ok i would respectfully suggest that it isnt accurate 100% of the time (although i think it is accurate more often than not)

as an example i have 2 samples of bushmaster carbines that are not built as the chart would suggest. (it should be noted that these rifles were for some reason unknown to me, built during the awb, but not in compliance, as if possibly built for LE)

they have properly staked gas keys (i have pics if anyone would like to see them, and will not take a request to see them as a challenge of my opinion, lol) they have black extractor inserts, they have the shrouded firing pin bolt carriers (wasnt that one of the things that many bushmasters have lacked?)

i have no answer for why mine seem to be different than the reports i hear, unless it is because mine are a2 hbar models, 16" barrels

please do not take as disrespect or a challenge. just the way mine are.

i have a friend that has the bushmaster orc. i should have a good look at his and see if its the same

(but i have a strong feeling it is not the same as mine after reading all the reports)

EDIT: i have also noticed that both mine have staked castle nuts, and the extractor spring has 5 coils. (actually, its not the castly nut that has been deformed, but metal from an adjacent piece has been rolled into one of the notches of the castlenut, i assume this is "staking the castlenut?)

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I do not disagree.
"The Chart" or indeed any system that gives information like this can not be accurate 100% of the time when it comes to human intervention. Can a BM have properly staked keys? Sure it can. Can a Colt have keys that got missed completely? Of course!

In cases like that all you can do is play the averages. History has shown us that Colt has better QC and doesn't cut corners. Of course having a government inspector sitting in the factory doesn't hurt! If their quality slips (Which is very possible if they lose the M4 Contract) then I would stop recommending them.

And of course the QC factor doesn't address things like lack of M4 Feed ramps, etc. But that is another topic for another time.

In conclusion, the Cart can be very polarizing by people who don't understand it. And that includes people who hate it and people who love it. There are those who think a far left carbine will always work and a far right carbine will always fail. This is not the case, it just shows you who is closer to the TDP and where corners may be cut by others.

And others think that it is made to apply to all AR15 purchases. While some items remain important regardless of configuration, others do not. Like all things in life it requires context.

In the end it is a tool, just like the guns themselves.

ETA: It is also worth mentioning that some things on the chart are not worded the way I would have done it. Such as the extractor spring insert. The color of the insert really doesn't matter. It is supposed to represent the type of spring that is used. But of course a manufacturer that doesn't follow the rules could use the correct insert with the wrong spring. In other cases I don't feel that things are described well enough. For instance the reason Taper pins should be used, and why parking under the FSB is important. There have been instances showing why both these items are important. But people often think it is just cosmetic.