Sig P232/230 Emergency Action Drills???

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Jijisan

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My first post and a question....

I'm waiting for delivery of a P232 in a few days. It's been authorized by my agency to carry as an optional off-duty pistol. I figured since it was a good deal, and a quality piece I'd give it a try.

It's the first time in almost 18 years as a cop that I've every carried a semi-auto that does not have a slide release/manual slide locking lever and/or European mag release.

So with that said, I'm lost as to how I would clear a malfunction such as a double feed. As most of you already know, most are taught, LOCK, rip, work, reinsert, rack, and bang/reassess.

Since you can't lock the slide back what do you do? Is it some how easier to rip the mag out with the European mag release? What am I missing?

Assuming you can't just rip the mag out without locking the slide, the only thing I can think of at this point is to push the front end of the gun into something around you to relieve pressure on the double feed and then simultaneously rip the mag out.

Thoughts?

Thanks guys, Rob
 
A few more things for ya

...

One of the very reasons I sold my Sig P232 SL..

Jams are a time eater, they happen more so with a 7+1 max load and right after the first shot..

Another factor I found out thru some 1450 rounds was that mine, at least, had a round count "factor" as the blow-back action gets the gun dirty quickly, in my case, 180 rounds of FMJ and from that point on, any JHP's with a max load, was a guaranteed jam/s first shot 90% of the time and between first and 3rd shot -100% guarantee..

230 rounds, max, and anything would jam and with normal load outs..

This because of fouling of both feed ramp, and first 1/3rd of the mag interiors with spent powder mixing with hot gun oil and I did not make mine real wet with oil, never the less, it jammed on the first thru the 3rd shot 100% of the time.

I negated this ongoing truth by doing regular cleanings at or before a 200 round count, a must, with my gun and it was dependable but, as you have noticed, the fear of "a jam" and the time it took to get the mag out and clear the jam was just not worth the pretty 380 so I sold it and got, nearly the same size and a tad lighter, an SA EMP SAO1911 9mm, 9+1 and have never looked back, being that they where nearly the same in cost NIB.

And, with the confidence of a closed breach action and a better round, a full 9mm at 124gr JHP, more load count, and IF any jams (only FTFC) in the first 300 rounds, dropping the mags was a simple push of the mag release button and it pops out, freely, unlike the P232, not to mention, the slight-angle the 380 requires to, first, get it in/started before it will then slide up and in..

Last, the EMP can and does go an easy 800 - 1000 rounds in-between cleanings without any doubts or fears, having a cleaner action than the 232's dirty blow-back and is a tack-driver. Just a clean, well balanced, point and shoot gun over the 232 I had, and even "more so" when it came/comes to one handed or weak handed shots. No jams with one, jams with the other, sold.

Bottom line, keep an ongoing round count and keep it cleaned on or before whatever total shots it will fire in-between total cleanings, including interior of mags on your gun..

I know the_beauty of the P232, looks wise, but with "so many" compact or Sc's out there in, full, more powerful, cleaner shooting, normal mag releases both out and in, 9mm's out there, you might want to consider a quick change while your gun has a low round count and a LNIB value to someone "else" but if not -

Best of luck with your 232 and do keep an ongoing round count, especially heading out with it in the concrete jungle..

OMMV,



Ls
 
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Ripping out the magazine seems like a bad idea. Most fall out just fine when you use the release.
 
Thanks Lonestar for the advice. I hope your situation was the exception rather than the norm, but I will certainly keep it in mind.

Unfortunately my agency only allows the P232 or P239 so I'm very limited to an "off-duty" pistol.

The obvious question that most folks have asked me is...get the P239. In theory it seems logical...BUT...in a recent firearms T&E, two P239s crapped out at around 5000 rounds. By that I mean the recoil spring/rod are of the pistol cracked under the slide and the entire assembly went down range.

It was found later when brass was being picked up.

This happened with both pistols (different lots/production dates) to eliminate the possibility of a bad batch of slides. I won't get into what the Sig Rep who was present said, but it wasn't positive.

So after that...the 239 is out of the question for me.

Bovice: When you have a double feed condition, the problem becomes that it usually is very difficult to simply remove the magazine. Normally by locking the slide back, it relieves the tension on the rounds which allows the magazine to be removed...and that allows you to clear the malfunction and get back in the fight.

V/R, Rob
 
Back in the day...in a galaxy far, far away as an FI for my agency we taught for the P220 double feeds the following:

Identify
Strip
Rack x3
Re-load
Rack
Engage x2
Access

This was a timed drill, with sub 5 sec expectations and accuracy parameters at 7 yards. Not uncommon for Officers to regularly accomplish this sub 4 sec.

FWIW...The P220 was an issued platform for a sister agency's CERT folks, and we adopted the malfunction drill from them. Watched it utilized in range, live-fire, funhouse ect countless times very successfully. Can't recall a instance when the procedure wasn't effective.

Also, if this suggestion isn't appropriate for your weapon I'd recommend giving the folks at Sig Training a call. They will tell you what they teach specifically for this weapon.

Good luck, stay safe.

ks
 
...

Rob,

I can appreciate "limits" and your situation..

I found that it took far more time to find a place to push the slide muzzle end, without touching the barrel. vs learning a quick - pushing, front to back, of the slide, "just a tad", is the key (takes the pressure off the 2 rounds allowing you to free up the mag a tad) holding it back, while with other hand - pushing the mag release button on the bottom of the grip/slide and then with the same hand - just pulling the mag down "a tad" - as pulling it all the way out to clear the jam is not necessary and with the mag, now, down "just a tad" (relieving the pressure you mention/felt), then cycling (turning gun on side/shaking) out the jam, then pushing the "still loaded mag" back up and in and recycling (sling-shotting the slide) again, (as it will close during the change of hand pressures, pushing the mag back up/in and re-griping), to load, then get back on target.. works fastest.

Bottom line, they're a no-joy, time-eating, jam - to be dealt with

Keep her clean with low round counts heading out and you should be fine..

I'd also recommend going just 7 rounds, 6 in mag, 1 in chamber, not max loads, as I explained above, with the accumulation of spent powder and blow back action and oil, it goes, namely onto the feed ramp and down the first 3rd of you mags, quickly..

I learned the above, quickest, safest, clearing drill thru my first 650 rounds and on both mags and first shot most of the time - 90% 2nd thru 3rd shot filled the void.. no joy with max loads especially and the_cures, cleaning on or before each 200 round mark and no problems (for the very most part) thru 1450 logged rounds of nothing but new WWB and Federal 90gr ammo and JHP's

But, I, ended up with 2 things "I knew worked 100%, with clean gun", and that was going with 90gr FMJ only, as the flat noses will have good punch-value just by their design and loads of only one in the chamber, six in the mag (taking away that extra mag pressure that in 90% of all my jams, with a semi clean gun, and they should have fed, it jammed on the first shot, with JHP's, every-time (even worse odds if a one handed shot) vs no jams with FMJ's and normal load and with one handed shots. OMMV


Ls
 
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Bovice said:
Ripping out the magazine seems like a bad idea. Most fall out just fine when you use the release.
Click to expand...
Not if you have a failure to extract/double feed malfunction, which the OP is (rightly) concerned about. The top round in the magazine is pinched between the slide and the fired case that stayed in the chamber while still being held by the magazine feed lips. The magazine has to be forcibly pulled out. Being able to lock the slide back takes some of the pressure off that round and makes this action easier.

Jijisan said:
Since you can't lock the slide back what do you do? Is it some how easier to rip the mag out with the European mag release?
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I have to think that would make it worse. Hopefully there is some provision to grasp the bottom of the mag, e.g., a protruding floorplate lip or a clearance cut in the frame. Failing that, the only answer I have for you is to hope the thing never has a double feed. It generally takes a broken or seriously fouled extractor to cause that. Keep the gun clean and in good working order.
 
I carried a 230sl for some time, or should I say two of them. I always kept them clean and never carried them with any round counts after cleaning. As a rule all my carry guns get cleaned every two weeks. I learned to do this when carrying the PPK/s. Lint would build up under the hammer causing it to act like a DAO pistol. Keeping any carry gun clean should be rule number 1.
 
I am a fan of small .380s.

I am also a fan of manipulation drills. The two are sometimes somewhat incompatible, unfortunately. I won't rely on any of my small autos that don't have an external/manual slide lock for anything other than recreation.

That said, the way to deal with type 3s with your mandated 232 is to use the "armorer's grasp"; Mas Ayoob explains it well using the 232 in his "complete look at sig" book:

http://www.amazon.com/Gun-Digest-Book-SIG-Sauer-Complete/dp/0873497554

In lieu of the lock, take the slide/recoil spring pressure off the mag like so:

Step1.JPG


Rip with the other hand.

FWIW.
 
Thanks guys.

I'll wait until it comes in this week and give it some time to train/qual with it before I decide if it's just going to be for range days or if I'm fast/proficient enough to carry off-duty.

Happy New Year, Rob
 
That's the one hand grip to use..
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Maybe your hand and your P-232.

Mine is a new one, and still so hard to rack it takes two hands and gritting your teeth to rack it without cocking the hammer first!

I can rack my locked-breach Kel-Tec .380 one-handed easily, as well as all my other locked-breach handguns.

My P-232-SL recoil spring though, is beyond my 66 year old hand strength so far!

As for double feeds?
Mine has digested every kind of factory ammo, and reloads including the floor sweepings from under the reloading bench without a bobble so far.

I think a double-feed with quality SD ammo is a pretty remote possibility.

rc
 
I just set up a couple of double feeds in my P230, and using the "armorers grip" above, using the same hand that holds the gun, quickly shift from a normal grip to the grip in the pic (its very fast and easy), grasping the gun and easing the slide slightly back at the same time with the same hand, just enough to take the pressure off and rip the mag out, is the quickest, easiest, and least user intense as far as gross motor skills go.

Once the mag is out, keep the gun upright and rack the slide a couple of times. If the round doesnt clear the port, it will drop out the mag well. At that point, I'd slap a new mag in the gun and overhand stroke it.

Another method for locking the slide to the rear, is to to grasp the slide with an overhand grip, with the thumb and trigger finger of your left hand at the rear of the slide pushing it rearward, and while doing so, slip the little finger of the same hand into the ejection port and hook the slide stop with it (usually with the mag not present) or its fingernail (in this case, with a double feed) and lift it up.

Not real fast and requires some finer motor skills, but it too does work. Its usually what I do when a mag isnt present in the gun.

Personally, I never really bothered to much with this drill with this gun, as I only ever use it as a back up and dont carry a spare mag for it. If I'm aready here, its probably a really bad place, as I've already gone through three high cap mags of a bigger round. :)

On a better note, after many years years of shooting two of them (I've had them since before the P232 was out), and many thousands of rounds of both factory and my reloads out of them, I dont ever remember having a stoppage with either of them.
 
It was a grip full, for sure

That's the one hand grip to use..
Click to expand...

Maybe your hand and your P-232.

Mine is a new one, and still so hard to rack it takes two hands and gritting your teeth to rack it without cocking the hammer first!

I can rack my locked-breach Kel-Tec .380 one-handed easily, as well as all my other locked-breach handguns.

My P-232-SL recoil spring though, is beyond my 66 year old hand strength so far!
Click to expand...
...

To be clear, mine was the SL model, heavy, which was fine with me and, yes, a new return spring stays stiff for a long time being it is for blow back action..

And, it was for my wife and like you, my 58yr old hands, at the time, were talking to me as well.. lol and she had no chance of clearing such a jam.. even with younger, 46yr old hands, as racking the slide was her, threshold, max limit. no joy

But as I said, round counts didn't lie, it was a guaranteed jam, any mag, any type load, after 230 rounds (pure spent powder/black on the feed ramp, within the chamber and down in each mag) and JHP's was risky above 180 rounds, this, as I said, thru 1450 rounds of new, good WWB USA and Federal, along with Federal HS 90gr JHP's.. It just wouldn't go any farther, round count wise - clean her up, not too much oil, never had her wet, just bi-weekly tune-ups/new fresh oil with total cleanings of feed ramp, barrel chamber frame inside and out, and interior of mags and mag springs - just a must, she "demanded" thru 1450 rounds.

Beautiful gun, no taking that away from them, but double jams, which was the case, every-time, were a time-eating nightmare and as I said, one need not remove the mag as it was faster to just get the mag down "a tad" to take off the pressure, turn gun on its side and while holding slide all the way back, shake those 2 bad-boys out (worked fast every-time) then while reforming a proper grip just pop the slide (still in) up and in, sling shot the slide and return to POA - POI.

I found that, in a rush (if mag was taken completely out) that "slight angle" it takes to "get the mag started, as in up, then in, then push it up and all the way in took far more time..

And, always knowing I had 5 good bullets left, it seemed the better, faster, road to take, "in the event" then re-cert reserve mag with 7 more rounds if need be.

But, sold it, never looked back (except how beautiful it/they are) and went with the SA EMP which is far far more forgiving in all areas of a gun with more power and the same size, relatively speaking, least for me and my needs.

Oh, and for the OP, make sure you "note" in the owner's manual, that the return spring has a small end and a larger end and is not easy to see, but its there and the small end goes on first, leaving the large end to butt up against the front muzzle within the slide just over the muzzle hole.. key

Not to mention, can't recall what it was called, but on the left side of the frame there is a piece that can easily fall out when disassembled.. Study it, learn it, as to how it comes off, but way more important, how it goes back on..

When I had it for sale at my range, they let some PO test fire it and he took it apart and tweaked that part putting it back in. Oh the gun still functioned but it never had that friction on the slide (what was a very smooth) action and I took it apart, saw that it had been bent/forced back in (wrong) and I simply straightened it back up, put it back in "right" and it worked 100% and I took it home then and there and sold it over in the Beretta Forum to another member who met me at my range and when it saw it and cycled it, his eyes went :what: SOLD!

I even brought 200 rounds and asked him, "do you want to shoot it first while we're here?"

"Nope" he said, and he was dishing out the cash (got top dollar for her) as it was a gem in all respects and I told him about "the round counts" and that as long as he cleaned her up on or before 230 rounds she would run fine.. Just watch the round count, especially if using JHP's.

And now these 61yr old hands remember, fondly, of that gun and thank me when I pick up the SA EMP 9mm 1911.. :) so soft (recoil spring) so forgiving of a gun, now thru 7500 rounds and jams (not many and only FTFC type now and then) but I love mags, and a upper mag button that, when pushed, the mag/s just pop/fly out, freely, and go straight up and in fast and clean, no angle at fist - so these old hands and fading eyes can do it blindfolded anytime/every-time.. real fast and effortlessly.

And, technically, being the_wife's gun, she's in Heaven with it as well, in any, and all, formats or requirements needed.

Looking back, it must have been too tight of a gun - demanded perfection (clean being one) and I hope all with one, that it runs and runs, unlike mine - ours was - unforgiving in to many ways.


Ls
 
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Thanks Lonestar49 for the tip about the spring.

I think the piece you mentioned that comes loose sometimes is the disassembly lever. I've heard this same issue from other 232 owners as well.

After I qual in the next few days, I'm going to purposely shoot as many rounds as I can without cleaning to see what happens....and how many times. I'll be shooting HP ammo. The only round we're authorized to carry is the Speer GD (90grn I think). I should be able to get 500 rounds down range, but will bring 1000.

If any one is interested I'll post my findings.

Thanks again guys, Rob
 
Rcmodel:

You bring up a good point; centerfire blowbacks are stiff. I've actually never seen a type 3 in the wild; all of mine were farm-raised myself using dummy rounds in training. In any SA or DA/SA auto, the hammer would already be back from slide motion anyways in order to even have a double feed in the first place, correct? That's why the armorer thing works, IMHO.

And Jijisan, don't let any naysaying about ease of crisis manipulation (especially from me, so I can clear my conscience) put you off of one of the more gorgeous gun designs out there. If my choices were between carrying a full size service gun all the time, carrying nothing, or carrying the proven 230/232 series guns I'd do the obvious thing with the 232 and not loose a moment's sleep over it. Fun, easy to shoot and surprisingly accurate with the long fixed barrel, they're still in production for a reason.

Again, JMO.
 
Thanks Lonestar49 for the tip about the spring.

I think the piece you mentioned that comes loose sometimes is the disassembly lever. I've heard this same issue from other 232 owners as well.

After I qual in the next few days, I'm going to purposely shoot as many rounds as I can without cleaning to see what happens....and how many times. I'll be shooting HP ammo. The only round we're authorized to carry is the Speer GD (90grn I think). I should be able to get 500 rounds down range, but will bring 1000.

If any one is interested I'll post my findings.

Thanks again guys, Rob
Click to expand...
...

Excellent idea, shoot her as much as she will go, but let me suggest this - keep one of the mags clean, shooting most in the other mag/s and when she coughs with both "used mags" then insert clean mag and see what happens, as I said, believe, part of the jam equation was the mags, IMO, via the dirty blow back spent powder build-up makes its way down inside the top 1/3rd of mag walls and spring..

This may, or may not, tell you it's just a mag issue of being dirty/contaminated vs clean or the feed ramp and chamber is just too contaminated with spent powder and whatever extra oil gets slung into the mix.. as it will.

I'll be looking forward to your range and round-count and mag report..

Best of luck with her, and as mentioned above, as my gun "taught me so well" that clearing double stack jams can be done, fairly smooth, and they are what they are.. (were.. ;) )


Ls
 
Range Report / Long

First I'd like to thank everyone that offered advice and help...you gave me ideas and things to try during my range time. I really appreciate it considering it was my first post. Says a lot about the crowd here.

So here are my experiences & results:

Sig Sauer P232 SSS w/. vertical slide serrations / Tritium sights / Hogue rubber grips. 3 mags came with the pistol and I bought 3 more spares for a total of 6 SS mags. Slide is marked with DE stamps and "Made in Germany". Slide only says Exeter, NH on right and Sig Sauer P232 on left. I thought Sigs were made in the US now? I don't really care....just saying...

I shot 550 rounds of Speer 90 gr GDHP (Marked law enforcement, but I'm not sure that means anything special).

I did not clean the pistol at anytime during the shoot. I did that on purpose to try and cause a malfunction. After an initial test to make sure all mags functioned correctly...probably cycled each mag 3 times (21 rounds through each), I put 3 mags away and used the other 3 for the rest of the time.

I shot a 60rd qual course to start. Distances ranged from 1.5 yds to 25 yds, 2 hand point shoulder, weak hand only, strong hand only, kneeling, and right/left barricade use at 15 and 25 yds. I shot a 299/300. Surprisingly (to me) all my 25 yd shots were in the center. I jerked the **** out of the trigger on my weak hand only at 7 yds and threw it in the 4 ring. I was impressed with this little gun.

I did find that I had to modify my grip a lot from the way I'm used to shooting full size pistols. I'm used to having my hand very high up on the back strap to lower the bore axis as much as possible. I've shot like this my whole life to manage recoil and shot to shot transitions. On the 232, you definitely can't do this and is a self correcting problem. I have the rail road tracks from the slide to prove it.

After the legal requirement was done, I used the rest of the time for more combat oriented shooting and that's where I burned through the rest of the ammo until time ran out.

The targets I used were the Q targets. I prefer 12" chest plates, but they weren't available. I call the drills "Standards". Back in the day our team used them as monthly quals along with other weapons systems. You shoot each drill twice. If you miss or don't make the time you fail. Fail 3 drills, and you're stood down until the next range date. Fail again and you're off the team. Everything is from the holster and distance is generally at the 7 yd line. 3 targets & 3.5 yds separated from each other.

Drills included:

one shot draw: 1.25 sec max

double tap / one target: 1.5

Target to target (one shot on 2 targets / start left/right then right/left on second time): 1.75 sec

Shot, mag change, shot: 3 sec...I failed this one no matter how many times I tried. I can normally do this in 1.5-1.75 sec on a "normal gun" :banghead:

Rhythm drill: 6 shots on one target / 3 sec / shot to shot variation cannot be more than .02 sec apart.

Double tap / 2 targets: 2 sec

Multiple engagements: 3 targets / one shot each target / left-right, mag change at third target and back to left (start right - left for second part of drill):5 sec

Same as above but double tap on each target: 7.25 sec.

I am happy to say I made the times for most but anything that had a mag change in it, killed me. I wasn't even close.

I also did some emergency action drills. For a double feed I tried a lot of different techniques to include the one sidheshooter suggested. I finally went with a variation where from a two handed grip I rotate my weak hand over to the top of the pistol (covering the ejection port) and place my weak hand thumb high on the back strap. Simultaneously I'm releasing my strong hand thumb to make room for my weak hand thumb and than moving my strong hand thumb and index finger to release and "rip" the mag out. As soon as the mags out I reestablish my strong hand grip and use my weak hand to cycle the slide and clear any rds and reinsert a fresh mag.

Clear as mud I'm sure...but it was the quickest and most reliable for me.

I will be honest and say that it was very hard to simulate a double feed with this pistol. Meaning...IMO because the barrel is fixed vs. tilting as in most Browning operated guns, the round doesn't really get that jammed. Most of the time, the second round is still mostly in the magazine still, held by the magazine lips.

With the limited time I have on this gun, I could be over looking something, but IMO the only way you'd get a double feed is if the extractor broke, in which case you're SOL and better find really good cover to turn your semi-auto into a one shot breach loader.

As for any real malfunctions I had zero. Gun was dirty as hell, but it kept on eating up those HPs. Mags & followers were relatively clean.

I haven't shot that many rounds at one time in a long time. My hand is a little banged up today.

Sorry for droning on and on. I hope I was able to contribute back for all the help you've given me.

Be safe & Happy New Year, Rob
 
Serious question -- you're a cop, why do you care about carrying a small gun off duty? Carry your duty gun in a OWB holster with a shirt over it, and if someone sees you printing and says anything, you show them your badge.

If I was a cop, I'd give less than a crap about printing or concealing well off duty.
 
harmon rabb said:
Serious question -- you're a cop, why do you care about carrying a small gun off duty? Carry your duty gun in a OWB holster with a shirt over it, and if someone sees you printing and says anything, you show them your badge.

If I was a cop, I'd give less than a crap about printing or concealing well off duty.
Click to expand...
Because I don't want the whole world to know I'm a cop or carrying armed. It's for my own officer safety and safety of my family when I'm with them.

In my state, getting a CCW is very hard. With that said if someone were to see me armed because I didn't conceal my weapon well, a reasonable person could assume I was a cop....that includes the bad guys. Now they know who I am but I have no idea who they are or that they might want to do me or my family harm.

Why would I want to put myself out like that and possibly attract problems? If I'm going to get involved in something, I want the element of surprise, not the other way around.

The reason I decided to carry the 232 is mostly because I can't, in good conscience, leave the house without a gun, but sometimes don't feel like going through the hassle of finding the right cloths to conceal a full size pistol. Especially for a quick trip to the grocery store or something. To do it right, it does require some thought and pre-planning.

The 232 is so small, I can slip it into a pocket if I'm really in a hurry and it satisfies my need to be armed.

Does that make better sense?
 
It sounds like you set out to find the best tool you could to solve a specific problem, got the tool, accessorized the tool, and practiced like hell won't have it (including malf drills) to make sure that both you and the tool are up to the task. I'm not finding anything not to like about this story. Congrats on your new gun. Carry in good health. And welcome to THR.

:cool:
 
The reason I decided to carry the 232 is mostly because I can't, in good conscience, leave the house without a gun, but sometimes don't feel like going through the hassle of finding the right cloths to conceal a full size pistol. Especially for a quick trip to the grocery store or something. To do it right, it does require some thought and pre-planning.

The 232 is so small, I can slip it into a pocket if I'm really in a hurry and it satisfies my need to be armed.

Does that make better sense?
Click to expand...
No, I think you have a mindset problem.

I won't depend on a small gun to protect my family and myself. And I'm not LE.
 
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