ATF called me today.

Bummer! You can't be too careful though. Why couldn't you fax them the serial numbers? Be sure to check their credentials. If all is kosher and any of the weapons you got from him are stolen, you'll be on the losing end without compensation.

not the atf but i once got a call from a shefiff in another city asking if i had sold so and so a gun (which i had) i told him yes i guess he could tell the question put the fear in me and he told me not to worry the person had just brandished it and had no permit
never heard another thing from it

How did you verify that the person that called you was actually an ATF agent?

Jeez. Sorry for your predicament.

I'd be trying to gather as much documentation I had for any and all gun purchases/sales I had available. Not legal advice, and not necessarily High Road, but I might also try to sell some of my firearms to some understanding friends ASAP. I'd do a bill of sale for those, but might not be able to find them very easily. Something along the lines of "it's easier to get forgiveness than permission". I absolutely do not encourage or condone breaking or twisting, of the law, but don't put yourself at an unneccesary disadvantage either. Heck, loaning firearms "for sporting purposes" is generally legal. I wouldn't want any of my firearms present when the ATF comes a-callin'.

Best of luck.

brboyer said:

How did you verify that the person that called you was actually an ATF agent?

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Yup - that.
And vice-versa, how does an ATF agent verify that he's actually speaking with the person he's intending to? And how did he get the number?

There's a REASON they (ATF) do things "in person" - live, and face-to-face

Maybe ATf calls first to make sure Clint is the seller, then makes an appt with him.

And Clint said that the face-to-face appointment is now set up. Good.

I'm not a government agent (I wouldn't last one day!!!) but if I was an agent I would call first to make sure Clint is the right guy, then set up an appointment with him. It sounds like that's what happened. That part doesn't seem unusual.


The part that made me think was telling the man on the phone too much info. Like the part about all the other guns I bought/sold to the man they're investigating. I think I would only answer their questions strictly and briefly, then make an appointment to sit down at their office (not my home). There is nothing dishonorable in being cooperative with a bonafide investigation, just keep it strictly business.

To Toforo: Not trying to be antagonistic, but do you think the proper time to get your ducks in a row is when the ATF is at your front door with an all too convincing show of force and abundance of badges?

Reschedule and call a lawyer. Do not talk to them...let your lawyer handle it.

ants said:

And Clint said that the face-to-face appointment is now set up. Good.

I'm not a government agent (I wouldn't last one day!!!) but if I was an agent I would call first to make sure Clint is the right guy, then set up an appointment with him. It sounds like that's what happened. That part doesn't seem unusual.


The part that made me think was telling the man on the phone too much info. Like the part about all the other guns I bought/sold to the man they're investigating. I think I would only answer their questions strictly and briefly, then make an appointment to sit down at their office (not my home). There is nothing dishonorable in being cooperative with a bonafide investigation, just keep it strictly business.

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YUP - that... EXACTLY.

They carry identification cards for a reason - and would ask the person they are interviewing the same in return.... not to mention "RIGHTS"

There would NOT be a lot of information exchanged over the phone other than a courtesy request to meet - and THAT'S what it would be - a courtesy, not a requirement

In fact, it would have to be some pretty peculiar circumstances for the ATF to be involved at all.....

seed said:

Reschedule and call a lawyer. Do not talk to them...let your lawyer handle it.

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Why?

Magoo said:

Jeez. Sorry for your predicament.

I'd be trying to gather as much documentation I had for any and all gun purchases/sales I had available. Not legal advice, and not necessarily High Road, but I might also try to sell some of my firearms to some understanding friends ASAP. I'd do a bill of sale for those, but might not be able to find them very easily. Something along the lines of "it's easier to get forgiveness than permission". I absolutely do not encourage or condone breaking or twisting, of the law, but don't put yourself at an unneccesary disadvantage either. Heck, loaning firearms "for sporting purposes" is generally legal. I wouldn't want any of my firearms present when the ATF comes a-callin'.

Best of luck.

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Magoo - I don't think you're being "antagonistic"

But - it's not up for debate (with me anyway) - we're talking privacy, rights, and processes......

An ATF agent isn't going to "jeapordize" an investigation by doing something wrong - especially if there's the possibility of something being cross/multi-jurisdictional

I stay away from "legal advice" for the same reasons - there are professionals for that. Ducks, yada yada yada....

(there was a NEAR duplicate thread last week regarding an ATF agent that called some guys CELLPHONE out of the blue... about a privately owned handgun sold 17 years earlier... We never got the an answer to the asked question of how the ATF got the guy's cellphone number)

Bummer! You can't be too careful though. Why couldn't you fax them the serial numbers? Be sure to check their credentials. If all is kosher and any of the weapons you got from him are stolen, you'll be on the losing end without compensation.


The agents would want to see the guns not just be read serials numbers. They will start off showing their ID and badge so that's not an issue. Yeah if any of the weapons are stolen you'll be out without compensation as you would anyway if the serial numbers were run at some time. I'd rather get rid of stolen guns I may unknowingly have as I'm sure any of us would.

Reschedule and call a lawyer. Do not talk to them...let your lawyer handle it.

If Clint was the target of an investigation I guarantee the agents wouldn't be giving him a heads up. People seem to think the nswer to any LE encounter is to lawyer up. As long as the conversation is about the guns sold to or acquired from the felon I see no reason to lawyer up.

Why?

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The BATFE has a decades long problem with truthfulness and integrity.

They once made an official training video on how to lie under oath.

I wouldn't talk to representatives of an agency that did that without benefit of legal counsel.

Talk to a lawer. Now, not later.

Another case of a government beauroucrat making a profession out of a simple clerks job.

They already know the guy bought the guns from another private party, no mystery there, but they are still asking the question... "How did he acquire the gun".

They already know, he has done business with you on several occassions, but, they want to talk to you to verify that.

My advice to you is to not volunteer any further information to them at all. Answer all direct questions, certainly, add in no additional information whatsoever. This is not being evasive, it is being smart, given half a chance these guys can attempt to claim that there was an ongoing relationship between you, and this other person, with you deliberately and knowingly selling firearms to a person prohibited from owning them... A messy allegation at best.

Sincerely,

ElvinWarrior... aka... David

A very good reason for getting a lawyer involved is this: what if as this agent is questioning you, you innocently say something that contradicts a previous statement you've made?
Now, you've "lied to a federal investigator" and even though you've done something wrong in the realm of firearms, now they have something to nail you with.
Do a YouTube search for "dont talk to the cops" to hear an excellent, articulate and entertaining talk from a law professor about why it's so important to clam up and get an attorney, even when you're innocent of any wrongdoing.
The man's name is James Duane, and he does an amazing job of deconstructing why the "if I have done nothing wrong, I have nothing to worry about"
sentiment.

Oh, for heaven's sake, folks! Relax!

To help you with some of the concerns noted here...

1. If you're worried about these guy's identity, ask them to show you some creds. You should be looking at a badge and a commissioning card. If there is any further doubt, call your local ATF Enforcement office; that's where the guys would be from.

2. If they're calling you about some specific guns, they might be doing a "forward trace" as part of a criminal investigation. YOU are not under the spotlight--otherwise you would be hearing a Miranda warning.

3. The fact that they agreed to meet you in a neutral location shows that they are in the information gathering mode, and not the PEOPLE gathering mode.

4. Finally, understand that the guys you are talking to have a job to do, just like you and me. Talk to them like normal Joes or Janes, the job is hard enough in the first place. Who knows? You might actually find that there are some pretty nice folks behind those A, T, and F letters.

Um, yer wrong on a number of counts..

The Miranda warning, is only once you are in custody or interrogation, some guys will never get it, as the cops don't feel the need to ask them questions, it ain't like TV or the movies.

they will meet a guy anywhere, and also arrest a guy anywhere so...

the proper response would be, so what is your name, number etc. Ok, I will call my ATF office, hope you pick up, if not I hope they confirm your existence.

Nice guy, yep same nice guys who made it a policy to sell guns to the MEXICAN CARTELS, guess the guys in the tracing department can view that as job security.....

The advise about not volunteering additional information is legit. Answer all direct questions truthfully and nothing more. That is just smart, concise, and best for both sides of the interview. An attorney may indicate that you believe something is wrong but it will protect you anyway. Remember Martha Stewart spent time for lying during an interview when no crime had been committed and there was no reason for the interview or the lie. Trying to outsmart them with a lie can turn a perfectly legal situation into fun with bubba.

The Miranda warning, is only once you are in custody or interrogation, some guys will never get it, as the cops don't feel the need to ask them questions, it ain't like TV or the movies.

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The Miranda v. Arizona admonishment is given whenever a person becomes the focus of an investigation into a criminal act; or, when a community contact turns into an investigative detention (see Terry v. Ohio). The point where the contact turns into a detention is when a reasonable person no longer feels free to leave.

they will meet a guy anywhere, and also arrest a guy anywhere so...

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True. But if they know where the OP lives, why not have an arrest warrant taken, based on probable cause and presented to a judge, and then go arrest him without warning him with a phone call?

As for "Operation Gunrunner" be assured that this fiasco was grown in the fertile minds of bureaucrats; NOT the street Agents who actually hit the pavement.

Wonder how it went...

Wow real paranoia.
Generally speaking appearing at least to be helpful to ATF is a good strategy. If you shut up and demand a lawyer you look like a criminal to them. That's bad.
Let's consider that the ATF is trying to put a bad guy in jail. Who wouldn't want to help with that?