Local Shop Owner: Sorry, I don't carry Kimber products anymore.

There is a unique shop in my area. They cater mostly to tactical and defensive users. Not many, if any hunting, or clay shooting stuff. It's cool to walk into a shop that knows the market well, and knows whats modern, and what's obsolete.

They sell stuff that's costs extra to insure reliability. Not too many "toys" on thier wall.

Most customers have a price range. When the price range of a Springfield or Kimber is near a DW, STI, or Colt. That's usually the way to go.

And DW, STI, and Colt are really hot right now. And they have better customer service.

Shops need to sell reliable guns to keep the customer coming back. They absolutely need repeat customers. They don't make jack on one gun sale.

Noone really wants to sell a bad weapon, so stores have been moving away from Kimber and Springy for a while. Most of the big name production 1911 companies have been surpased in many ways. It's very hard to produce a 100% reliable 1911 out of the box. They all need a few tweaks. But Kimber and Springy just don't have time for this attention to detail on thier production line.

Even high end 1911 companys have a hard time getting everything right. Springy and Kimber are maybe too big to be good anymore. And gun shops can't afford to blow thier profit margins on shipping bad guns back to momo companies that can't repair them. Companies that too often don't even shoot them to verify the problem. Just polish a ramp, change a spring, and some other BS that deos nothing. Then send the gun back to the owner who still can't get it to shoot right. Very frustrating, and a very easy way to lose repeat customers.

MIM isn't about using cheaper parts at all. It's about using parts that require no custom fitting and no extra skill or labor. Most Kimber parts drop right in. This can be a nice thing for the end user though. I just changed my Kimbers grip safety to a Kimber bump safety with no fitting at all. Eventually I did "senseitize" it for quicker engagement. But it dropped right in.

Not to mention some of thier features are a bit out of date. No bump safety. No ledge rear sight, 3 dot sights instead of modern straight eight style night sights, gaudy checkering and billboards.

Kimber put Colt 1911's out of business literally. Now Colts back and kicking butt in Kimbers price range. Talk about role reversal.

Now that I know exactly what I need from a 1911, I go straight to the DW's, LB's, and custom tuners. I'm not thrilled about the cost involved. But after building up a good 1911 myself, when I figure out what I'd sell it for to cover all my effort....

When I worked in a gun shop we really made very little on NEW guns. Used guns had a decent markup, and accessories, i.e., ammo, holsters, cleaning stuff, targets, that'swhat paid our salaries and kept the light on. Of course, the indoor range rental fees helped a lot.
But new gun sales? Not hardly.

357Shooter said:

This just doesn't compute. Let's say, your "guy" LGS does $3 Mil a year. HUGE for any gunshop. That works out to (per your "high of 5%") $150,000 of gross profit a year. That is $12,500 a month GP. Take out, what ever you want for salaries, insurance, rent, advertising, leasehold improvements, loan payments...on and on. He needs to be selling, let's take a popular gun, a S&W 686, 3" @ $670.00, 4478 of those, that is 373 a month, that is 12 per day (open 12 hours per day, 7 days per week) it's a gun an hour. NOT.
I'm afraid he's gotta be making a little more than he's telling you or has a trust fund.

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Well at least some folks are paying attention. I clearly stated in my post "This is why he needs volume of sales and also why he sells other products with higher profit margins such as powder, ammunition and accessories." If he gives good prices on firearms, there's a chance that customers will come back to buy the other items.

JohnBT said:

I don't know what the current figures look like, but they own a big chunk of the autoloader market, at least as of these 2007 ATF pistol - not revolver - figures.

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Here's a complete list of US pistol production numbers for 2007. Kimber was the largest producer of any company that only makes 1911 pistols with three times the production numbers of Colt.

Smith & Wesson 302,623
Sturm, Ruger & Co. 142,017
SIG SAUER 111,653
Kel-Tec CNC 103,893
Beretta U.S.A. 87,631
Beemiller 78,090
Glock 61,703
Kimber Mfg. 55,722
Cobra Ent. Of Utah 36,396
North American Arms 1,501
Saeilo Inc. 26,166
Haskell Mfg. 23,400
Colt’s Mfg. 17,833
Paul Jimenez 21,977
Iberia Firearms 19,750
Arms Technology 19,721
FN Mfg. 18,889
Springfield 13,687
Phoenix Arms 11,000
Taurus Intl. 9,850
Thompson/Center 9,375
U.S. Firearms Mfg. Co. 630
STI 7,157
Bond Arms 6,414
SCCY Industries 5,420
CZ-USA 2,374
Wilson’s Gun Shop 2,339
Masterpiece Arms 2,216
Les Bear Custom 1,974
Bushmaster 1,553
Seecamp, L.W. Co. 1,517
Caspian Arms 1,466
Tactical Solutions 1,259
Nighthawk Custom 1,201
Century Arms 1,084
Ed Brown Products 1,065
Excel Industries 819
Magnum Research 108
Olympic Arms 580
Foster Industries 542
Wise Lite Arms 442
A.P.I. 431
Strayer Voight 392
Double Star 358
Excell Mfg. 250
Rock River Arms 242

That's funny. I rarely see a Kimber at the range other than my own?

Zerodefect said:

That's funny. I rarely see a Kimber at the range other than my own?

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Those are production numbers, not necessarily sales. Maybe Kimber is storing them in a huge vault or only making 1,000 which they melt down and then make another 1,000. As for what I see at the range ... mostly polymer framed pistols from Glock, S&W and Springfield along with quite a few SIGs. I don't see a lot of 1911s other than in our local USPSA matches.

Off topic but you know the history of ZD Wines right? Have you been to the vineyard in Napa Valley?

Whether it's Kimber or Colt or Wilson or Springfield etc....

<deleted>

That's all that LGS is doing - he's tired of the (current) "HIGH MAINTENANCE" of one of his product lines and feels his time could be BETTER spent in another direction.

It's HIS shop, HIS stock, HIS decision.

No surprises here. Selling a greater NUMBER of a brand means you will have more problems with that brand. That doesn't necessarily mean there is a higher RATE of problems than with any other brand. A brand with higher demand and market share than their competitors can leverage a harder bargain than their competitors, and perhaps some of the dealers decide it is not in their interests to keep them anymore.

As for Kimber's customer service, I certainly wouldn't know. I've never had to deal with them. After shooting my Kimber, many of my friends and family have switched to 1911s, mostly to Kimbers, and those that didn't wish they did. Best gun I have ever owned.

Don't let the legitimate shops fool you, if you run any kind of semi profitable bussiness, you have to make at least 25-30% margins on your total sales to stay in bussiness.

You will find the guys that sell for less that sell out of their garage or basement and do it only as a second income.

Example a lot of shops will stock the cheap $230-$500 dealer cost guns and easily add $75-$100 in mark up.

Example a taurus for $225 dealer cost and then sell it for $299-$325

Most distributors will hold their dealers acountable and often terminate their accounts if they find the one dealer is trying to use cut throat pricing and barely making a profit.

Smith & Wesson 302,623
Sturm, Ruger & Co. 142,017
SIG SAUER 111,653
Kel-Tec CNC 103,893
Beretta U.S.A. 87,631
Beemiller 78,090
Glock 61,703
Kimber Mfg. 55,722

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The biggest surprise for me in that list is how big SIG has become. I've sort of been not paying attention to the market for awhile and didn't realize they were nearly twice the size of Glock.

The internet is clogged with people who complain. The majority who are content don't usually bother to say anything. Again, when you sell a high volume of any product, you will have a higher number of problems with your product. This DOES NOT EQUAL a higher RATE of problems than your competitors.

Man, you're really out to get Kimber back on this, huh? I've known plenty of guys who swear by their Kimbers. Funny thing about gun guys is that most of them know someone who owns one of whatever it is you're hating and know it to be a perfectly acceptable firearm as far as reliability goes. And a lot of these same guys use their Kimber as an EDC.

As for profit margins, I wouldn't be at all surprised to find out the margins were close to 15% or more on firearms. For a while there you could get away with selling guns a little higher because people were buying them up like crazy. The guy has to run his business and with that comes overhead. Lots of it. Electric, water, rent/lease, accountant, attorney, insurance, taxes, licensing, etc, etc. All that adds up and you need those big ticket items to get by. That would explain why a lot of upstart firearm shops go broke. If this guy lived where he worked he might get away with substantially less as far as operating costs are concerned, but since that's highly unlikely he's going to need to sell a whole lot of consumables to keep his customers coming back (like a drug dealer, so to speak). Then the diversity of goods comes into play. It costs a lot to keep inventory on hand, depending on how your inventory is taxed. After all is said and done a small operation would probably have to clear $250/day for every day in a month just to open the door and turn on the lights. That doesn't include salaries and inventory. I can easily imagine a fairly low margin on ammo; maybe as low as the gun. Cleaning supplies and accessories probably get a decent margin, but just like guns, you don't buy that stuff all that often.

In short, if Kimber is creating an adverse relationship with the dealer then why would the dealer continue to do business with them? Sales is sales. You can sell a guy on a pistol that is just a little outside his range as long as you can convince him that the extra money spent will pale in comparison to the benefit of the bargain. "Yeah, that Hi-Point is nice, I guess, but this Ruger P95 is only a little more and look at all the features you get for that extra $150 like a magazine that holds FIFTEEN ROUNDS, opposed to 8 or whatever this Hi Point holds. Plus, it's made in AZ where people really love their guns, and not only does it come with the best warranty in the business, Ruger gives kittens and/or puppies to underprivileged children." (No one ever said sales people were honest)

Beemiller and Haskell are the manufactures of Hi-Point firearms

Br said:

The biggest surprise for me in that list is how big SIG has become. I've sort of been not paying attention to the market for awhile and didn't realize they were nearly twice the size of Glock.

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So, let me get this straight...

BeeMiller, manufacturer of HiPoints (ya know, the one everyone says is junk) has higher production numbers than BOTH Glock and Kimber?

Funny thing is, Haskell Mfg. handles the JHP .45 handguns for HP, while Iberia firearms handles the JCP .40's.

Which means the numbers for BeeMiller are not covering those, only the 9mm and .380 handguns...

Not bad for a firearm that so many snobs call junk...

Depending on what type of operation or store front the guy has, rent is usually bewteen $650-$2000 per month depending on sq. ft. there are no attorney fees for each year unless the guy is always getting sued or simple ma pa shop only needs a bussiness license and tax # less than $250.

LLC or S corp is only $350 -$1000 one time fee, price depends how smart the owner is and if they can do most of the work on their own.

Acconting fees $500-$850 a year, if the shop can keep up with a simple monthly statement.

Gun shop bussiness insurance is very cheap thru the NRA, some dealers told me they pay less than a $500 a year, I know a small auto parts shop that pays $2500 a year for a simple 1 million in coverage.

Other factor is most small bussiness owners are in the 25-30% tax bracket and can not operate at a 15% net profit .

So when some bussiness owner tells you they only make 15% its total BS, the fact is they need to make at least to 25-30% to stay in bussiness.

Most bussiness make from 25-100% profit depending on their product line.

Also most companies and distributors have set up their dealer pricing structure to allow the dealer to make a minimum of 25-30% or more.

The only exception to this rule is when a small shop tries to compete with the big box retailers, with their massive buying power they can get special pricing that no small shop will never recieve.

I know buddies that are ffl dealers and they give me extra copies of the dealer catalogs and price lists, so I know all about the dealer pricing structures.

Moonlight at a Kimber Master Dealer. We sell every one we can get. We just can't seem to get as many as we used to.

BTW, the entry level Custom II sells for less than $800.

Working at a shop which is also a Kimber master dealer I find that Kimber is probably one of the least responsive to our needs. It is hard and costly to become master dealers. You are supposed to get some priority. You don't.
Kimber sends out their price list, you put in your orders and wait, and wait, and wait. We have about 45 Kimbers on order and are lucky if one a week trickles in. Often it isn't one we have ordered.
As far as the rifles go, some on their catalog list aren't even being made and won't be made. When we call for availability, the answer is "four to six months".
I'm pushing the boss to stock more of some of the others.
I think Ruger's new 1911 All American might be a kick in the a** for Kimber.
I have one. I have a conversion unit. I'd like a Solo but we have over 25 on the waiting list for them and have received only two so far.
Poor customer response, in my opinion.
BTW, few shops make anywhere near thirty percent...most guns net under 20. Compare that to clothes, food, prescriptions.

IIRC, at one time Kimbers had a lot of problems. Instead of improving quality, they hired some nice young gals to work CS and sweet talk the customer into thinking there wasn't any problem. That worked for a while until folks caught on and Kimber had to actually work on their QC issues. They seem to have done so, and I have heard very few complaints about Kimber quality in recent years. But I wonder if they have not slipped again as they try to keep up with demand.

CS is seldom the problem. If a company has a good product and good quality control, they don't need much in the way of CS. (Remember the Maytag repairman? There was a lot of truth in that - the product was top notch.)

Jim

xr1200 said:

I know buddies that are ffl dealers and they give me extra copies of the dealer catalogs and price lists, so I know all about the dealer pricing structures.

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OK ... so what's the dealer cost on a Dan Wesson Valor (black). As I said, my LGS quoted me $1,759 which includes shipping to the store. He stated that the price is only $50 or so over his cost. Pistol can be here in two days.

1858 said:

OK ... so what's the dealer cost on a Dan Wesson Valor (black). As I said, my LGS quoted me $1,759 which includes shipping to the store. He stated that the price is only $50 or so over his cost. Pistol can be here in two days.

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$1709 sounds about right to me. The SS is down to $1500ish now.

StrikeFire83 said:

Question: What the hell is "Beemiller" ?

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It's Hi-Point.


Beemiller 78,090

Haskell Mfg. 23,400

Iberia Firearms 19,750


TOTAL 121,240

That's 2007--before the economy started its big slide. Interesting. Puts 'em in #3 slot over all, behind Smith and Ruger, and ahead of SIG.

Strikefire83,

What is the name of the shop and where is it located?

tipoc

JohnBT said:

I don't know what the current figures look like, but they own a big chunk of the autoloader market, at least as of these 2007 ATF pistol - not revolver - figures.

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Be very careful what assumptions you make from the ATF Annual Firearms Manufacturers And Export Report, which that article you cite references.

For example, take a peek at the latest report from 2009 -

http://www.atf.gov/statistics/

The 2009 report numbers show data like:

• Para only produced 900 autoloaders;
• CZ only produced 3,199;
• Beretta only produced 123 automatics in a caliber greater than 9mm;
• Taurus made no automatics in 9mm, 40 S&W, or .45 ACP, and no revolvers at all.

Well that just doesn't square with reality, does it? Taurus made no revolvers in 2009? How can that be, you ask?


It's because the report only contains firearms manufactured in the United States. All the stuff that's imported isn't included on that report.


Analyze the data before making assumptions from it.