Report : .40S&W JHPs versus Bone and Ballistic Gelatin
- Thread starter Brass Fetcher
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Loosedhorse
member
Hornady put that goopy little red stuff in the HP cavity specifically to keep it from getting filled with debris, because debris will predictably cause failure to expand. It's interesting therefore to see it fail--and fail spectacularly!--but I am not sure why it failed. And I've never seen a test before where it failed (and I know of no actual shootings of attackers with FTX). So I'm surprised.
I am also surprised that all other HPs failed miserably...but the DPX did great! Why should that be? Does the DPX expand through some other mechanism beside hydrodynamic pressure inside the HP cavity?
Without explanations, lots of results can surpirse me.
I am also surprised that all other HPs failed miserably...but the DPX did great! Why should that be? Does the DPX expand through some other mechanism beside hydrodynamic pressure inside the HP cavity?
Without explanations, lots of results can surpirse me.
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Mike1234567
member
FTX doesn't have "goopy stuff" in the hollow point cavity. They have a "soft polymer insert". I suspect that the former acts more like a hole stopper (plug) than it acts as a "plug preventer" because it "adheres" to the inner circumference of the cavity. The polymer plugs are loose, not "glued in", so the cavity is free to expand. This is just my conjecture...
But, yes, I too was VERY surprised to see the FTX fail. And it DIDN'T fail due to its cavity filling with debris... the polymer insert was intact.
Well whatever....But still it's troubling to me that all of the so called defensive hollowpoints save the Cor-Bons acted like fmj's and penetrated way past the thickness of the human body by a good margine into the unknown.
I read somewhere that the Hornady's design was so that the issues of over penetration would be greatly reduced.
Obviously this test shows other wise.
I read somewhere that the Hornady's design was so that the issues of over penetration would be greatly reduced.
Obviously this test shows other wise.
Sure, IF they expand optimally and IF they stay straight and don't turn sideways and IF everything goes perfectly well and IF they function in the real world the same way they do in ballistic gelatin tests.
That's a lotta ifs.
Loosedhorse
member
Yeah--like I said, "goopy little red stuff."
Mike, if you can find us a formal definition of my technical term
D) "goopy little red stuff" that clearly must exclude "soft polymer insert"--then I guess you're right to "correct" me.Until then, you're wrong.
So, lighten up, dude!(Hey, I'll admit that I was assuming that Hornady pours or injects a liquid into the HP cavity and allows it to "set up"--polymerize--in place. If you know for a fact the plug is pre-formed and then press-fitted into the HP during manufacture, then I must admit that the red stuff that Hornady puts there is less goopy than I thought!
)
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Mike1234567
member
Sorry, Loosedhorse. I didn't intend to "correct you".
I intended only to state my opinion that injecting a liquid polymer or silicon or other rubbery substance into a hollow point cavity won't behave the same way as a polymer insert. This stated... the Critical Defense STILL didn't expand and that vexes me.
I intended only to state my opinion that injecting a liquid polymer or silicon or other rubbery substance into a hollow point cavity won't behave the same way as a polymer insert. This stated... the Critical Defense STILL didn't expand and that vexes me.
MikeNice
Member
Maybe you are right. I haven't actually taken anatomy in a while. I was visualizing the pec area anyway and typed it out wrong. Even there it is probably less than an inch. I was thinking of the people I work with. We really only have two types. Those with above average muscle mass and completely fat and out of shape. Not exactly a good cross section to draw from.
I stand by the basic premise and withdraw the detailed number.
MikeNice
Member
The Hornady is supposed to prevent over penetration when hitting flesh and muscle first. When it hits a hard barrier first all bets are off. Hornady has said several times that the CD is not meant for barrier penetration. In other words, if it hits a barrier harder than clothing first all bets are off.
They are not designed to pass the FBI or international standards for barriers and performance.
How exactly do these plugs help ensure expansion? My understanding was that old fashioned, "unplugged" HPs can "fill up" with matter and thus prevent expansion. How does pre-filling the cavity change this picture?
I'm a bit baffled by the whole "HPs don't expand if they get filled up" thing anyway. It seems to me that if I shoot something with a HP bullet, the cavity will always fill up with something. Now if the cavity walls give way and expand, then there is no cavity afterwards. But if the walls don't give way, we should recover the bullet with the cavity filled with flesh (or whatever medium we fired it into).
Mike1234567
member
The polyimer plug prevents nonhydrous material from filling the cavity but allows hydrostatic shock to expand the bullet. I haven't studied fluid dynamics but this is my basic understanding of their concept, which is nothing new, BTW.
Cards81fan
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This just goes to show that I choose JHP because I think that if it expands, it's a bonus. If it doesn't, I pretty much have a FMJ of the same caliber. Cartridge selection (reliability in one's particular handgun, and caliber debates, aside) is worth far less than what most people want make of it.
But I still like reading the gelatin tests
But I still like reading the gelatin tests
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OP
OP
Brass Fetcher
Member
It's likely that the majority of the hollowpoints tested were clogged with the bone simulant and the cavities did not fill with enough fluid pressure (or any fluid pressure in some cases) to expand.
The thickness of the bone simulant plate was a nominal 0.246"
Depth (maximum) of the hollowpoint cavities was as follows:
Cor-Bon 140gr DPX = 0.335"
Federal 165gr Hydra-Shok Tactical = 0.188"
Hornady 165gr FTX = NR
Remington 165gr Golden Saber JHP = 0.163"
Speer 180gr Short Barrel Gold Dot = 0.210"
Winchester 180gr Ranger-T = 0.255"
Considering also that the broad majority of hollowpoints out there have some internal taper to the cavity, the depth really should be measured down to where the taper starts. This would give a better indication of how thick a bone could be shot before the hollowpoint fails to expand.
The thickness of the bone simulant plate was a nominal 0.246"
Depth (maximum) of the hollowpoint cavities was as follows:
Cor-Bon 140gr DPX = 0.335"
Federal 165gr Hydra-Shok Tactical = 0.188"
Hornady 165gr FTX = NR
Remington 165gr Golden Saber JHP = 0.163"
Speer 180gr Short Barrel Gold Dot = 0.210"
Winchester 180gr Ranger-T = 0.255"
Considering also that the broad majority of hollowpoints out there have some internal taper to the cavity, the depth really should be measured down to where the taper starts. This would give a better indication of how thick a bone could be shot before the hollowpoint fails to expand.
janobles14
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and people also have muscle! if we are talking dead center sternum shots then i can see this being valid. but anyting off to the side an inch or more will hit muscle and fluid before it hits bone.
slap a ribeye on the front and see what happens.
slap a ribeye on the front and see what happens.
At the mid-line you're probably correct. As you move out the tissue increases in thickness.
Mike1234567
member
True, but the sternum is relatively narrow. Move far enough off-center to hit thick flesh and you miss the sternum. Also, bullets don't expand until they pass through at least a couple of inches of flesh, right?
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It depends on the bullet. I've seen slow motion video of the federal EFMJ through a 1" slice of ballistics gell and it was fully expanded. Critical defense should open very fast as well, it's one of the criticisms of it. Other bullets open at different penetration depths. As usual, the answer is it depends.
If you'll recall, the FBI choice before the Miami shootout was a Winchester silver tip. It traded penetration for velocity and expansion. Winchester supplied the round the FBI wanted.
Now the FBI has different set of requirements. None of those address bone penetration. So the manufacturers don't test against bone. They test to meet the FBI protocol. Again, the FBI gets rounds tailored to the tests they use.
MikeNice
Member
Airburst,
I work for a police department and can say that I know officers that have used the HST to stop bad guys. I know officers from other jurisdictions that have used the Winchester Bonded to stop bad guys. They all worked effectively in the 1-4 shot average.
I have also read through dozens of OIS reports from different jurisdictions. The Speer Gold Dot, Winchester Ranger T, Winchester Ranger Bonded, Winchester SXT, Federal HST, Federal Hydra Shok, Federal Hi Shok, and Remington Golden Saber rounds have all stopped bad guys.
That doesn't mean that the bad guy died. It means the bad guy either gave up or was not able to continue fighting. Either way a stop is a stop and they all do it on a regular basis.
I work for a police department and can say that I know officers that have used the HST to stop bad guys. I know officers from other jurisdictions that have used the Winchester Bonded to stop bad guys. They all worked effectively in the 1-4 shot average.
I have also read through dozens of OIS reports from different jurisdictions. The Speer Gold Dot, Winchester Ranger T, Winchester Ranger Bonded, Winchester SXT, Federal HST, Federal Hydra Shok, Federal Hi Shok, and Remington Golden Saber rounds have all stopped bad guys.
That doesn't mean that the bad guy died. It means the bad guy either gave up or was not able to continue fighting. Either way a stop is a stop and they all do it on a regular basis.
SlicLee
Member
I dont believe the test at all. It appeared to be set up to purposely show failure of HP ammo.
There was also no show of the gelatin, why?
What exactly was the bone shield made of, how thick was it, why a rubber cover around it, how thick was the rubber cover.
You did a disservice to the members of this forum.
All ammo used was at the bottom end of velocity, you showed one Corbon at 1100 that started to open.
The 40 caliber is one of the most versatile calibers. There is ammo equal to a hot 125 grain .357 that is listed a 95% one shot kill.
A 135 grain HP at 1450 95% kill.
A 150 grain HP at 1350 90% kill.
There are more,look it up,all the info is out there, believe only part of what you read.
Why did the govt order from Winchester 200 million rounds of 40 caliber ammo with a 135 grain HP bullet.
There was also no show of the gelatin, why?
What exactly was the bone shield made of, how thick was it, why a rubber cover around it, how thick was the rubber cover.
You did a disservice to the members of this forum.
All ammo used was at the bottom end of velocity, you showed one Corbon at 1100 that started to open.
The 40 caliber is one of the most versatile calibers. There is ammo equal to a hot 125 grain .357 that is listed a 95% one shot kill.
A 135 grain HP at 1450 95% kill.
A 150 grain HP at 1350 90% kill.
There are more,look it up,all the info is out there, believe only part of what you read.
Why did the govt order from Winchester 200 million rounds of 40 caliber ammo with a 135 grain HP bullet.
OP
OP
Brass Fetcher
Member
The test setup is detailed in the report.
Repeat the test.
Share the results with everyone.
If you need help making the gelatin, send me an email.
John
Repeat the test.
Share the results with everyone.
If you need help making the gelatin, send me an email.
John
rbernie
Contributing Member
I disagree.
The test was conducted using standard materials and standard test methodologies, from a well established forum member who has a considerable background in performing terminal ballistics testing. Many members here have contributed ammunition and/or funding to facilitate Brass Fetcher's testing, and in turn Brass Fetcher has been more that willing to publish his test results on THR for the benefit of the community.
You, on the other hand, have contributed very little to this forum so far and have established zero bona fides here with regard to this subject. While I appreciate the merits of your concerns, I would suggest that your presentation is not in keeping with the expectations of THR and that you might want to consider moderating your approach a bit.
MikeNice
Member
No, he did a great service to the members of this forum. At the very least he got us to debate anatomy and look at how a hollow point can be effected by shot placement. He ran his test and posted it for review and rebuttal. That is how the science of most matters gets moved foward.
They didn't. They ordered up the 180gr Winchester PDX-1. The 200 million rounds was actually up to 200 million rounds of service, reduced lead, and frangible ammunition.
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