Should I have paid?

Yep, once it gets on his bound book, if you are going to get it back you need to do a 4473 to get it off his books. For my consignment customers, I do that for free.

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For a consignment sale, you're probably right. But for a repair, it goes in the bound book but is returned to the owner afterwards without a 4473.

Redlg155 said:

Yes, I did have complete the ATF forms and pay for the call before having my weapon returned to me. As I understand the law, it would be the same procedure for returning a gun from pawn.

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You contracted with the gun shop to sell your gun for you, for a fee. They failed to do that. When the gun was returned to you, as evidenced by the legal transfer with a form 4473 and NICS check - that contract was over, done with, null and void. You NEVER contracted with the gun shop to pay them to provide you with a "customer" or a buyer. You contracted for them to sell the gun. You were under no obligation, legally or morally, to pay them for providing a buyer for you to sell your gun to yourself, because there was no contract in place for you to pay them for that "service".

But then, in 18 months of doing consignments ... I've only had to do it once. Don't give it to me in the first place if you don't want it sold!

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I have taken firearms off consignment when I found a buyer on my own before the FFL sold it.

And before anyone jumps on me, I'll just say this:

Some dealers seem to think they should get paid for every single second they spend "working". The real world just doesn't work that way. Think us mechanics get paid for everything we do? Believe a teacher is compensated for every minute they put in? A Farmer? An Attorney?

If your pay is piecework or commission, expect to get paid very handsomely for some jobs, and nothing or very little for others. If you work on salary, you understand that you may very well work more hours than you're paid for. If you own a small business, plan on sacrificing every waking minute to keep it running and earn a moderate income, and bet on giving things away regularly to keep customers happy.

If you can't handle that, you need to be an hourly employee.

i used to work for a motorcycle dealer that worked that way. they would take a bike in on consignment, get a customer all lined up, and they would call the owner and try to get him to lower his asking price so they could keep the extra money. all is fair in love and war, but when it comes to money, there is no such thing as fair. to many people are willing to do whatever it takes to get as much as they can, and to heck with the consequences. ahhhh, the ALMIGHTY BUCK! if people worried 1/2 as much about their soul, as they did their wallets, the world would be a much better place. sad.

I would have paid the dealer. I wouldn't have found that customer, walking in the door that day, if the dealer hadn't been open for business. It was the dealer's storefront, sign, advertising, whatever, that bought the guy in off the street.

You do what you think is right.

As far as all that speculation about the dealer's methods? Ask him about it. Honesty is the best policy. You will learn something one way or the other.

John

X_wrench... You're dang RIGHT!!

The store brought the customer to him, thus it is the store's customer. The store's advertising and reputation brought the guy there. You asked for opinions, so why argue?
Morally, the store deserves their cut. It's the honorable thing to do.

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Sorry but I just can't go along with this. When he took the gun off consignment, the agreement was over. You would not owe him any money any more than you would if someone noticed the for sale sign in your truck window while parked in the Walmart parking lot and bought it. Would it be the "honorable" thing to pay Walmart a commission??? After all, by your logic it was THEIR storefront that brought THEIR customer to YOUR item for sale.

having sold cars in the past and having the same scenario come into play. once its no longer under our contract its no longer our deal. We have had plenty of customers cut a deal in the parking lot looking at each others cars.

the dealer had his chance. Whether it was one day or ten days later the contract with the dealer is over. I can understand his asking for it but I understand your not giving it to him. He had his chance and didnt get the job done.

Sometimes appearances do matter. It probably "appeared" to the store owner that you made a side deal while it was on consignment and boldly sold it right outside his door. That stated, I trust no one regarding anything... ever. So I'm fairly confident the store owner took every penny he could from you. If he was honest he would have showed you the bills of sale for the others he did sell.

I agree you shouldnt have paid. It was no longer on consignment.

This idea that because they met in the parking lot in some way entitles the dealer to some amount of money is ridiculous.

In no other circumstance would you pass on a commission or anything gained to the place of business where you randomly ran into someone who wanted something you could sell them.

I could understand that reasoning if he was using the dealers storefront for personal gain... Then it would be the dealers store,advertising, etc. that brought the customer.

In this instance you were just two guys that struck up a conversation and one offer to buy something from the other, honestly it was probably you carrying the firearm that attracted the buyer... not the dealers storefront, this was a coincidence that could have happened anywhere. If you had been walking around walmart carrying the firearm and the buyer recognized it as one he wanted then the deal would have happened there, there was no conscious use of the dealers storefront.

Redlg155 said:

As for the dealers previous sketchy methods, I did ask, that's how I found out that he had traded one of my consignment guns without authorization.

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I would think that would constitute theft. You were not providing that firearm for him to use as he saw fit.

"After all, by your logic it was THEIR storefront that brought THEIR customer to YOUR item for sale."

But it wasn't Wal-Mart, was it? Why drag that nonsense into the discussion? It was a gun store. The customer was walking into... a gun store. Not Wal-Mart, not the gas station parking lot, the gun store.

That guy could have been a paying customer at the gun store.

I would have paid the store. That's all I said. It's obvious that other people live by other standards.

JohnBT said:

"After all, by your logic it was THEIR storefront that brought THEIR customer to YOUR item for sale."

But it wasn't Wal-Mart, was it? Why drag that nonsense into the discussion? It was a gun store. The customer was walking into... a gun store. Not Wal-Mart, not the gas station parking lot, the gun store.

That guy could have been a paying customer at the gun store.

I would have paid the store. That's all I said. It's obvious that other people live by other standards.

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He wasnt going to be a paying customer. He tried and couldn't come to an agreement on the gun.

the buyer was interested in said gun, said gun was no longer in store. hence, he was not a customer.

Yeah I do live by different standards, I pay people for work... If they dont do the work they dont get paid.

I would have paid the store. That's all I said. It's obvious that other people live by other standards.

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It's not a question of standards; The contract was ended.

Even if the sale had been arranged prior between the OP and buyer, and they decided to meet at the LGS to conduct the transaction, the LGS is owed nothing. Perhaps in poor taste to conduct business that way, but certainly not immoral/unethical.

I check cars out for free, and sometimes people go home and fix it themselves. Sucks for me, but that's just how it is, and they owe me nothing. I may charge for inspection the next time they come in, but that would be at my discretion and disclosed prior to the next transaction.

As mentioned, unless the OP signed a binding contract stipulating that he would owe the store a comission even if he sold it on his own, he is under no legal or ethical obligation to give the FFL a single penny.

IMO, from the sound of it, the FFL is the one of questionable character. Most definitely he is greedy/entitled.

As to trading off the OP's rifle; Fine, so long as he would have called the OP and paid him what would have been owed if it were sold. Otherwise, not just wrong, but illegal. It wasn't his to trade. That's theft.

We'll just put it this way. The OP can do what he wants. If he feels like he should go back and pay the guy, then it's up to him. I gave my reasons why I wouldn't. If he couldn't sell that gun, but the op could just walking out the door, that shop owner wasn't being very honest on anyone's part. Yeah, they need to make money, but who's to say the OP's getting what he should be getting out of them?

It's the OP's call, pay or don't pay. Don't have any qualms about not paying, because he's probably raked in a nice sum of money from you.

JohnBT said:

I would have paid the dealer. I wouldn't have found that customer, walking in the door that day, if the dealer hadn't been open for business. It was the dealer's storefront, sign, advertising, whatever, that bought the guy in off the street.

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True, but we can also take that in the other direction too. If I recommend the guy, and someone who wouldn’t have otherwise bought a firearm from him does because of my recommendation, does he owe me a commission?

Of course not, unless he has a policy to do so.

Redlg155 said:

The thing that bothered me the most is that he stated that he deserved a cut of the money at my next visit to the store. I've purchased several guns from him as well as sold several on consignment. Last season I brought my stepson to the store where he spent 1k on a complete matthews archery setup. He's now lost my business, that of my family and anyone who asks me for a store recommendation. All for demanding monies that he failed to earn.

Good business sense.

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With all that you've written there I'd have to agree that he's a bad business man. To top it off, I'd have to say he's a jerk too.

...and stated that he could not reach a deal with the dealer

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The dealer had his chance and failed. If there was anything you didn't tell us - like maybe you talked to the buyer about it before you took it off commission - then I'd say you owe the dealer. Otherwise, it was just a poor choice of venue for your transaction and you owe him nothing.

Agreed, you owe the dealer nothing. Don't lose sleep over it.

I wouldn't pay him a nickel. He had his chance and failed. Plus he already made a lot of money off of you. He's got a lot of nerve to even suggest that you should pay him.
I once put an old outboard motor on consignment with a shop. I thought it would sell pretty quickly for what I wanted for it. I think it was about $500. I expected the shop to make $50 or $100 tops. It didn't sell in a month so I went down there. They had $900 on it. I took it away from them and sold it myself for $550 the first day the ad ran.
So yeh, not everybody is honest when it comes to consignments.

Mr.Blue said:

IMHO you cannot prove that he screwed you. In all fairness it was his customer that bought the gun so he deserves his commission.

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I disagree. The guy who bought OP's gun wasn't a customer of the store, because he didn't buy the gun there. He tried to, but the shop owner wouldn't drop the price enough, apparently even to the minimum asking price, which is what the gun was sold for.

I don't think the dealer deserves anything. Especially not repeat business. He would have gotten a commission if he had sold the gun, but he didn't.

But it wasn't Wal-Mart, was it? Why drag that nonsense into the discussion?

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It's called an analogy John. Used to clearly demonstrate how silly it is for the dealer to have expected payment.

It's obvious that other people live by other standards.

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I love the self-righteous view that it's about morals and "standards". Very convenient to use as a basis for arbitrarily dismissing any view that conflicts with your own.

I can flip that around and ask YOU why your standards don't apply to Walmart??? Or do they only apply when it isn't a huge evil corporation or your money???