Anyone use those shotguns with no butt-stock?

http://tinyurl.com/3v9fpme

covered extensively, I'd read those threads and ask any remaining questions in a more specific way

Dave is pretty correct here. There have been TONS of threads (literally, thousands of lbs. worth of electrons...do you have any idea how many electrons are in a ton? Well, it's a lot, let me tell you. More than five, anyway...) on PGO or "Pistol Grip Only" shotguns and what, if anything, they are good for.

Unfortunately, we usually end up in a hot blooded argument between those who find them useful for defensive purposes and the rest of us. Wait, see, even I can't discuss them in a neutral way, and that's saying something!

They can be fun in a goofy challenge type of way. (We used to shoot skeet with them. Or, rather shoot AT skeet with them.) They are not painful to shoot and won't hurt you if you use anything like good practices to shoot them ...though folks do seem to be able to find ways to avoid good practices and manage to hurt themselves anyway.

From a practical standpoint, they are a bad choice that folks seem to desire with surprising intensity to make, despite all the evidence and proof of the fact that they make you slower and far less accurate than a full-stocked shotgun. In my way of looking at things, slower and far less accurate are serious negatives to a defense-of-life tool. Especially when the benefits are nonexistent or at least unimportant.

Anyway, the first thing you need to do is read this: http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=44465

That's Dave McCracken's PGO and hip-shooting thread, and it is absolutely the primary treatise on the subject from someone who has spent more time with one in their hands -- and instructing others on their use -- than any other member of this forum, and possibly anywhere else.

I do alot of upland game hunting with a pistol-gripped-only shotgun (squirrels, hares, grouse, turkey, etc.) It's a Mossberg 500 12GA.

I have absolutely no trouble precisely aiming bird shot loads from eye-level with this configuration. In fact, I can even use 2-3/4" slugs and buckshot loads accurately without the weapon hitting me in the face. Last week, I was scouting for deer and killed a coyote with 00 buckshot with the shotgun in this configuration (yes, coyotes can be stalked if you're extra, extra creepy).

I like the pistol grip primarily because it eliminates the recoil of brutal 12GA loads (your body is not absorbing anything). With a full-stock, I cannot use slugs or other hard-kicking loads because I flinch too badly.

It also makes the weapon lighter and easier to handle in brush (swamps, 2nd growth hardwoods, etc.), and rides very comfortably hands-free in a scabbard, not unlike a handgun. This is important to me, because I'm likely to spend a long, long time hiking around with my guns.

I first started using this because the consensus was that pistol grips were useless. This seemed illogical to me for the simple reason that people hunt with handguns, which only fire a single projectile. How much easier would it be to use a similar weapon that fires shot loads? Just point the darn thing and pull the trigger! I've realized that people who are against them simply don't realize that they can be fired from eye-level just fine. I think that's really it. I set out to prove them wrong, and I have.

I doubt I'll ever go back to a full stock, as I certainly don't need it for my current shotgun uses. As far as I'm concerned, the purpose of a full stock is to stabilize a weapon for the precise placing of individual projectiles at long range. Count on me to be idiosyncratic.

I like the pistol grip primarily because it eliminates the recoil of brutal 12GA loads (your body is not absorbing anything)

Click to expand...

\Actually, now the limited area of your wrist is absorbing it all instead of it being spread throughout your meaty shoulder area

With a full-stock, I cannot use slugs or other hard-kicking loads because I flinch too badly.

Click to expand...

That is something that can be readily fixed. I've been working on that with my son.

By all means, use your PGO if you like it, it's a free country. But the speed and follow up shot capability you get with a full length stock is undeniable. If a PGO was faster in any way, competitors would be exploiting that really quickly.

I agree that someone can get surprisingly fast and accurate with a PGO used at eye level, and should be able do so without the recoil bringing the gun back anywhere near their face.

That said, I think the vast majority of shooters are going to lose a lot more than they gain by going with what's basically an awkward, oversized handgun vs a stocked shotgun.

This seemed illogical to me for the simple reason that people hunt with handguns, which only fire a single projectile. How much easier would it be to use a similar weapon that fires shot loads?

Click to expand...

Well, when you make that "handgun" 26"+ long and weigh several pounds, your require the shooter to use half of a handgun grip and half of a long-gun stance (support hand forward to stabilize the gun and work the action) so you get the benefits of neither method. Neither the stability and accuracy of an Isosceles or Weaver pistol stance, nor the anchored butt and swing/point-ability of a long gun stance.

Sure, you can hit with it, but not as quickly/accurately.

Just point the darn thing and pull the trigger!

Click to expand...

Now that's a telling statement right there. Anyone who believes that this is an adequate explanation of shotgun technique should probably spent a lot of time with a quality instructor.

With a full-stock, I cannot use slugs or other hard-kicking loads because I flinch too badly.

Click to expand...

Again, you need to avail yourself of good instruction. Flinching is a problem that can be overcome, not a condition you just have to live with.

I've realized that people who are against them simply don't realize that they can be fired from eye-level just fine. I think that's really it.

Click to expand...

No, that's NOT it. I've shot PGOs from eye level for going on 20 years. Realized pretty much immediately that this was the only way to get good hits at distance. Also discovered that the best practices with the PGO were far inferior to anything that could be accomplished with a full-stocked shotgun.

As far as I'm concerned, the purpose of a full stock is to stabilize a weapon for the precise placing of individual projectiles at long range.

Click to expand...

Several million wingshooters would disagree with that opinion.

There is a common theme in these PGO threads that because it is possible to accomplish something with a PGO, that makes it a good idea or the practical choice. With the possible exception of storage in confined spaces, door breaching, and maybe of ease of carrying in thick brush as you described, there's nothing a skilled shooter can do with a PGO that they couldn't do faster and more accurately with a full-stocked gun.

Dave's challenge still stands...

Flinching is a problem that can be overcome, not a condition you just have to live with.

Click to expand...

Absolutely. I've worked with my 12 year old on it and he was able to stop flinching after some practice. He went from using a 410 to a 12 gauge with little trouble.

Yes.

This one:



The others? No, don't care for them.

lpl (High Standard Model 10A)

Yes you can hit with them and yes followup shots are slower.

Lee - you must RH

That HS wouldn't work well for us LH folks.......

Lee - I am simultaneously repulsed and attracted to that hideous thing. I can very easily see the utility of a bull pup shotgun. Great maneuverability, still stable, not hanging 30+ inches past your hand...

But it's so ugly you could only shoot it in the dark.. which makes practice very hard unless you have glowing clays

I just looked back at it and cringed and exclaimed "My God!" and I still want it.. something has gone terribly wrong with me.

Yes, it is definitaly a distinctive little beast.

I had a pistol grip on a Mossberg 12 Guage and shot 3" magnums out of it. I nearly took out my front teeth and nearly wiped my nose from my face. Needless to say, that was a nine-day wonder.

Choate makes an excellent regular synthetic rear stock with spacers you can add and remove at the recoil pad! Excellent way to fix a PGO gun, in my opinion!

That HS wouldn't work well for us LH folks..

Very true. The text under the ejection port says DO NOT SHOOT FROM LEFT SHOULDER.

I'm on my second 10A, I bought the first one back in the early 1980s and sold it about ten years later to someone I used to literally ride shotgun for with it. I love 'em, as ugly as they admittedly are. But they hold a strange attraction for people, a lot of people want want to shoot it when they see it. Especially after they see it fired one handed with the 'stock' rotated and held in the bend of the elbow.

And as for shooting it in the dark, it has a built-in 2-D cell flashlight. It was way ahead of its time in some ways, I wish there was a product-improved version available today.

I always thought the HS 10 platform had potential. The trigger bit, the ergos were awkward, but I loved the OA length and sheer firepower.

IIRC, the one I shot ate a hole through an old junker car with slugs.

A strange person, if you are that effective on game with a PGO, a standard stocked shotgun would have you feeding the whole neighborhood.

\Actually, now the limited area of your wrist is absorbing it all instead of it being spread throughout your meaty shoulder area

Click to expand...

Actually, I was speaking from experience, if you didn't gather that. The recoil is absorbed by the air; all my body is doing is keeping the weapon from flying away. This is the only way I can accurately use heavy loads like slugs and premium 3" turkey ammo.


Instead of a length reply to Sam1911, Ill just say this: I do things my way.

The wolf says to the bobcat "why bother with all of that sneaking around, when you can just gather your allies and run your prey down?" to which the bobcat responds "I am not like you."

oh boy here we go ................

A strange person, if you are that effective on game with a PGO, a standard stocked shotgun would have you feeding the whole neighborhood.

Click to expand...

I'd let them starve first. A bunch of lazy good-for-nothings.

It works a lot better with a pistol grip forend in addition to the rear pistol grip. That way, the shock is spread between the two hands, and you can brace the shotgun with a push-pull bow technique. The downside here is that at this point the extended length of the weapon is roughly the same as it would be if you had a stock. Nonetheless, they are actually quite effective this way and it allows aimed fire with good accuracy. It's not too much to handle with birdshot, but with buck, after 5 or so rounds you really want to just put it down or hand it off to the next guy.With buckshot using the push-pull technique, it's not the wrists that hurt, it's the palms that end up red and swelling.

I found that the reason follow-ups were slower was because of the bouncing motion of the shotgun while pumping. I too have shot clay birds with one, so acquiring a target and hitting it isn't the issue. It's the "other stuff."

A lot of PG only shotguns seemed to have found their way onto the packs of soldiers in the sandbox. I understand it is one of the configurations of a modular 870 package that is in the supply line. It says something to the practicality of the arrangement, even if it's just for breaching doors and clearing a room or two.

I don't dare dismiss it, but I also don't see anyone shooting competitions or courses with it.

I never found PGO shooting to be uncomfortable even with buck and slugs, of course I've never found anything the PGO setup does better than a stocked shotgun except be shorter in length, and even then it'll be no shorter than a folding stock.

By all means, use your PGO if you like it, it's a free country. But the speed and follow up shot capability you get with a full length stock is undeniable. If a PGO was faster in any way, competitors would be exploiting that really quickly.

Click to expand...

Yep.

I'm not emotionally invested in the PGO/non-PGO debate. I try to avoid emotions, in general; and specifically where inanimate objects are concerned.

With that said, I can see some positives for the manueverability of a PGO shotgun in tight quarters. They generally weigh a bit less than their full-stock brethern. Addtionally, it might be a bit easier to stuff them in a backpack or go-bag than a shotgun with a full stock.

Like most firearms, shooting the PGO shotgun well is a matter of both proper technique and practice. In my direct personal experience, I have found few owners of PGO shotguns who have mastered the proper techniques let alone spent much time practicing once those techniques have been mastered.

I don't own a PGO shotgun myself. However, I could see combining one with a sling like the one designed by URBAN ERT for the SIG P556 pistol and developing a technique that could leverage the advantages of maneuverability and weight mentioned above.

Heck, I might pick up a cheap, used Mossy 500 and give it a try just for fun.

With that said, I can see some positives for the manueverability of a PGO shotgun in tight quarters.

Click to expand...

I've never understood that. Bring it up to aim, and you're still looking at the same length. Shoot from the hip, and you're not gaining much, either. A short barrel or collapsible stock carbine is just as maneuverable, if not more. That shotgun isn't getting a huge spread at self defense, inside the home ranges.

It has been repeated ad-nauseum but whatever you can do with a PGO, you can do better/faster/more quickly/more accurately with a stocked shotgun.

Excpet this:

Addtionally, it might be a bit easier to stuff them in a backpack or go-bag than a shotgun with a full stock.

Click to expand...

The PGO wins hands down with when it comes to storing it in small places or ease of carry.

That being said, they are fun occasionally.

ForumSurfer said:

I've never understood that. Bring it up to aim, and you're still looking at the same length.

Click to expand...

But prior to deployment you would have greater maneuverability, right? I'm not speaking from experience ... merely theorizing. No need to tuck the stock under your armpit for the CAR High Position.

In fact, if you are a fan of the CAR High Position, popularized by Paul Castle, the stock would be superfluous.