so often do i hear online about someone who got shot with a 9mm but they were so drugged that the shots did nothing, often the next comment is that if they had a 45acp ther wouldnt be a problem. my question is that if they can take that much damage with a 9mm idk how much better a 45 would be
Drug Addicts??
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SpentCasing
Member
Strong will and determination to live is more powerful than any drugs. See Miami FBI shootout.
Shot placement is crucial moreso than caliber.
Shot placement is crucial moreso than caliber.
JERRY said:
Spot on. There have been reports of surviving a few rounds from a .50 cal BMG and a simple .25 ACP killing with one shot.
Shot placement that hits the central nervous system or vital organ is about the only way to quickly stop a threat...drugged or not. If a major artery is hit, they could bleed out quickly, but not necessarily quick enough for an instant stop.
The human body can be both extremely fragile and unbelievably resilient...there are so many factors that your best bet is to practice with what you carry and work on speed and accuracy...dumping an entire magazine or cylinder into the threat's center of mass (or until the threat is stopped) is your best insurance.
ROCK6
Exactly. Unless you can hit the central nervous system (brain, brain stem, etc), you're not going to stop anybody instantly with a handgun. Even a shot to the heart isn't "instant", as blood pressure needs to drop enough to cause loss of consciousness.
robinkevin
Member
Agree, drugs wont make their body run any different, it just puts more "fight" into them as they dont feel the pain. Basically any deer hunter can tell you that if you shoot a deer in the heart or a good double lung shot the deer will not run far if any. If you shoot a deer in the shoulder, gut, ass, neck(with out hitting anything major) the deer will run hundreds of yards.
Shot placement is key, and the difference between a 9mm and .45 is not that big of a difference if both are using good hollow point ammo. Most people use military studies to point out that the .45 is better, but NATO calls for full metal jacket ammo in war, in which case the smaller 9mm will do less damage and go clean through compare to the larger and slower .45.
Best thing to do is know your kill zone and make sure the bullet goes there, also remember the head is a poor target as it moves a lot more than the body and is a smaller target.
Shot placement is key, and the difference between a 9mm and .45 is not that big of a difference if both are using good hollow point ammo. Most people use military studies to point out that the .45 is better, but NATO calls for full metal jacket ammo in war, in which case the smaller 9mm will do less damage and go clean through compare to the larger and slower .45.
Best thing to do is know your kill zone and make sure the bullet goes there, also remember the head is a poor target as it moves a lot more than the body and is a smaller target.
My experience is that using my .30-06 a deer still usually runs 20-25 yards with a lung shot. If you get a neck shot (central nervous system hit) they fall right there. I would expect a lot could happen in the time it takes a deer to cover 20 yards. My old hunting buddy shot a deers heart out with a .270 & still had to crawl 100 yards into the briars to get it.
I would not bank on instant incapacitation after one shot with any caliber.
+1 on what MikeJ said. I've shot deer from 25 yards with a .308, torn the top of their heart off, and still seen them run a 100 yards further.
The "I'm gonna shoot him right in the eye with my .22 and kill him instantly dead cause shot placement is key" is great until you are shaking, have tunnel vision, you are running, a larger (armed?) attacker is running at you, it is dark, and he is bobbing and weaving like a boxer.
The "I'm gonna shoot him right in the eye with my .22 and kill him instantly dead cause shot placement is key" is great until you are shaking, have tunnel vision, you are running, a larger (armed?) attacker is running at you, it is dark, and he is bobbing and weaving like a boxer.
robinkevin
Member
Can't say this for myself, I did use some 180gr bullets once and found they didn't expand very quickly. Have to have good expansion, I have also tried 165gr as many people suggest but find for deer 150gr through the lugs up to 300 yards is a dead shot, maybe 10 yard run. I don't trust neck shots as I've seen too many fail to drop the deer, actually my brother took a neck shot this weekend and we tracked the deer a good 250 yards, finding two pools of blood (after we waited an hour to make sure we didn't push him) and even found parts of neck bone (2) before finding the deer.
Either way a deer is much tougher than humans from what I have seen, I'd got for center of mass, actually I aim for a triangle area from the center of mass with the tip stoping at the chin. Aiming dead center of mass and shoot low you will hit the gut (not good).
mljdeckard
Member
Kind of. There is a physiological response that makes people fall over when they get hit. Your brain freaks out and tells your body to fall down. This effect can be mitigated or eliminated by drugs, shock, or adrenaline. If everything is just moving so fast that you don't realize you have been hit, you can keep going. The only hit that is guaranteed an instantaneous stop is a hit to the central nervous system, between the sternum and the nose. This hit will stop all motor activity. Everything else is just degrees of likelihood.
And yes, it's silly to believe that one handgun round is magical and another is useless. I carry 230 gr. .45 ACP. But if I had to carry 115 gr 9mm FMJ, I would shoot.....exactly the same way I do with the .45.
And I do have a hangup with the 'shot placement is everything' mentality as well. It's a lot, but it's not EVERYTHING. If the only thing that mattered was shot placement, we could all carry .22s and aim for the jugular. In real life, the target doesn't stand still at a perfect angle for you to get a perfect shot at something that will stop them. If you are REALLY that good, that you KNOW you can ALWAYS get a CNS hit on a moving target, under stress, then I guess that can be your plan. I'm not that good, I don't know any competition shooters who are that good. This means to ME, that my plan will be to get as many hits to the center of mass in the shortest possible time. The more hits I get, the more likely that one of those bullets will cut something that the bad guy needs to keep moving. The likelihood of a stop goes up exponentially with each hit. For ME, Getting a lot of GOOD hits is a better plan than one PERFECT hit.
And yes, it's silly to believe that one handgun round is magical and another is useless. I carry 230 gr. .45 ACP. But if I had to carry 115 gr 9mm FMJ, I would shoot.....exactly the same way I do with the .45.
And I do have a hangup with the 'shot placement is everything' mentality as well. It's a lot, but it's not EVERYTHING. If the only thing that mattered was shot placement, we could all carry .22s and aim for the jugular. In real life, the target doesn't stand still at a perfect angle for you to get a perfect shot at something that will stop them. If you are REALLY that good, that you KNOW you can ALWAYS get a CNS hit on a moving target, under stress, then I guess that can be your plan. I'm not that good, I don't know any competition shooters who are that good. This means to ME, that my plan will be to get as many hits to the center of mass in the shortest possible time. The more hits I get, the more likely that one of those bullets will cut something that the bad guy needs to keep moving. The likelihood of a stop goes up exponentially with each hit. For ME, Getting a lot of GOOD hits is a better plan than one PERFECT hit.
I have seen plenty of PCP and or wet (THC in the pot + PCP evaporated onto marijuana from formaldehyde) users who took 4 people to restrain. One broke his 3 joints in his hand punching a 2 inch thick steel reinforced door then behaved as if nothing happened, 23hours later he sure was screaming about it when moved to a medical floor and couldent seem to get enough dilaudid. Needless to say everything happens so fast in situations like that that im not sure if I were randomly on the street and had to deal with someone like that without a team of people there would be time for shot placement. Its nice to practice fast target acquisition but things happen a lot faster in real life if in close proximity to people who are druged up and often angry. What im getting at is Im not sure the caliber is as important as the number of shots into center of mass. My goal would be to get as far away as I can from someone drugged up attacking me. When I have to see them in a confinement room and Im unsure if they will try to harm me I often stay outside the room and yell in with other people with me. I cant emphasize how fast things happen in the 10 to 20 foot range.
Mikhail Weiss
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Don't know if this guy was on drugs or not...
http://www.crimefilenews.com/2006/03/40-caliber-nightmare-is-caught-on-tape.html
...but two .40 caliber rounds to the chest didn't stop him. In other such cases I've read, there's simply no predicting how a bad guy will react to getting shot, even when rounds are well-placed, as were those in the linked article/video.
In the end, no matter which service caliber you choose, all you're doing is poking holes in things. The more of them you poke in important things, and the faster you do it, the better off you'll likely be, and the worse off your antagonist.
http://www.crimefilenews.com/2006/03/40-caliber-nightmare-is-caught-on-tape.html
...but two .40 caliber rounds to the chest didn't stop him. In other such cases I've read, there's simply no predicting how a bad guy will react to getting shot, even when rounds are well-placed, as were those in the linked article/video.
In the end, no matter which service caliber you choose, all you're doing is poking holes in things. The more of them you poke in important things, and the faster you do it, the better off you'll likely be, and the worse off your antagonist.
exavid
Member
I never believed in the magic caliber, I've always practiced a lot with the pistols I own. I don't kid myself that firing a few rounds a couple times a year is enough for me to depend on a gun in case of need. I shoot 'em a lot at the range on paper and steel. The main point is to put those bullets where they do the most good for the shooter. The rest is arbitrary.
mgmorden
Member
Drugs remove the psychological aspect of the gun. Many attackers if not carrying themselves (and some even if they are) will run at the sight of a gun. Drugs remove that fear. Many who wouldn't run at the sight would at least ATTEMPT to flee if actually hit by a shot if they are able - even if the hit was non life-threatening. Drugs can remove that response.
Basically, drugs can make an attack from a human a lot more like an attack from an animal. No logical thinking, no higher reasoning, just a flat out attack where you're going to need to physically disable them before the attack stops. In many of these cases a 9mm is no worse than any other pistol round. A .45 makes a slightly bigger hole, but you're basically just hoping to put one of those holes through something important enough that the body con't continue with that part disabled.
Basically, drugs can make an attack from a human a lot more like an attack from an animal. No logical thinking, no higher reasoning, just a flat out attack where you're going to need to physically disable them before the attack stops. In many of these cases a 9mm is no worse than any other pistol round. A .45 makes a slightly bigger hole, but you're basically just hoping to put one of those holes through something important enough that the body con't continue with that part disabled.
A decent sized hole through the heart, pulmonary vein, or the ascending aorta will be a near immediate stop, in most cases. Doesn't matter the willpower or intoxication of the target. Anyone that has hunted much will know that.
The brain functions on aerobic metabolism of glucose, only, and it uses a lot of glucose and oxygen to remain functional. The muscles can utilize anaerobic metabolism to supplement, but the brain is literally living one heart beat to the next. The existing blood levels of glucose and oxygen in the brain will drop enough to cause loss of consciousness within a few seconds when a good portion of its blood supply is being squirted through a hole. It only takes a relatively minor reduction in the brain's blood supply for this to occur. A choke/sleeper hold induces unconsciousness in about 6-12 seconds by reducing the blood supply by as little as 13%. An impact to the heart can stop the blood flow, completely. He might not be clinically, irreversibly brain dead for a good 15-20 minutes. But he would only have about a second or three before the lights go out.
A heart shot is essentially an indirect CNS hit in the way it initially incapacitates.
It's only when the major blood loss is much further away from the heart, where you'd have to wait for a drop in overall blood pressure.
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If there were one magic boolet, in one super caliber, just think how boring this forum would be, because we, and the BG`s, would all have the same thing 
You can shoot the same BG, with the same thing, the same way, twice, and have three different results. You'll never know the out come until the dust settles
Some have posted their deer hunting experiences, and the same shot, onto the same species, seemed to sometimes end differently. Just as LEO`s have different endings in apprehending suspects under fire. Not every agency carries the same firepower as in their issued or approved caliber, ammo type, and sidearm manufacturer. Some can only carry one style, and some have a wider range to pick from so as to use what ever makes them feel comfortable. And as for the drugged-thug, the influence could go either way, it could enhance their stamina or reduce it?? No two outcomes will play-out the same.
You can shoot the same BG, with the same thing, the same way, twice, and have three different results. You'll never know the out come until the dust settles
Some have posted their deer hunting experiences, and the same shot, onto the same species, seemed to sometimes end differently. Just as LEO`s have different endings in apprehending suspects under fire. Not every agency carries the same firepower as in their issued or approved caliber, ammo type, and sidearm manufacturer. Some can only carry one style, and some have a wider range to pick from so as to use what ever makes them feel comfortable. And as for the drugged-thug, the influence could go either way, it could enhance their stamina or reduce it?? No two outcomes will play-out the same.
Zerodefect
member
Pistol wounds are quite survivable.
Shot placement is key. Entire magazines of shot placement is better.
Drugs or not, it's not unusual for people to walk right through gunfire and continue to attack, for a while at least. How long deos it take for someones blood pressure to drop with a 9mm hole in the chest?
I've got nothing against 9mm+p, as I do carry that, but I still prefer .40 and .45.
Shot placement is key. Entire magazines of shot placement is better.
Drugs or not, it's not unusual for people to walk right through gunfire and continue to attack, for a while at least. How long deos it take for someones blood pressure to drop with a 9mm hole in the chest?
I've got nothing against 9mm+p, as I do carry that, but I still prefer .40 and .45.
DeepSouth
Random Guy
I believe a properly placed 40 or 45 will have more effect than a 9mm placed in the same area. All other things being equal, bigger is better.
Always remember you get what you pay for, any my opinion is always free.
Always remember you get what you pay for, any my opinion is always free.
My unofficial forum survival guide actually covers this one:
1. Everyone that will ever consider robbing you is a 250 lb bodybuilding crackhead with an insatiable thirst for blood and damn near bulletproof skin. Only semi auto bullets starting with a .4, revolver calibers containing the word magnum, or 12 guage shotguns will do for defense.
2. All firearms are bought for the purpose of defense or SHTF situations. Even if you specifically state that it is for target practice (aka plinking), somebody will bring up tactical use, concealed carry, and "stopping power" at some point in the thread.
3. Zombies are no joke, it can and WILL eventually happen. You're either prepared or you're undead, pick one.
4. Will this caliber kill (insert animal) will result in answers about grizzly bears or drug addicts. It is inevitable.
5. Zinc guns will not last 1k rounds before flying apart and blowing off your hand. Everyone has had a buddy who knew a guy who had an uncle that blew his hand off with a J22 and can now only drive an automatic.
6. If you don't know about something, fake it till you make it.
7. Almost everyone around here can shoot the ass off of a fly at 100 yards firing offhand during a blizzard that came during a freak sandstorm.
1. Everyone that will ever consider robbing you is a 250 lb bodybuilding crackhead with an insatiable thirst for blood and damn near bulletproof skin. Only semi auto bullets starting with a .4, revolver calibers containing the word magnum, or 12 guage shotguns will do for defense.
2. All firearms are bought for the purpose of defense or SHTF situations. Even if you specifically state that it is for target practice (aka plinking), somebody will bring up tactical use, concealed carry, and "stopping power" at some point in the thread.
3. Zombies are no joke, it can and WILL eventually happen. You're either prepared or you're undead, pick one.
4. Will this caliber kill (insert animal) will result in answers about grizzly bears or drug addicts. It is inevitable.
5. Zinc guns will not last 1k rounds before flying apart and blowing off your hand. Everyone has had a buddy who knew a guy who had an uncle that blew his hand off with a J22 and can now only drive an automatic.
6. If you don't know about something, fake it till you make it.
7. Almost everyone around here can shoot the ass off of a fly at 100 yards firing offhand during a blizzard that came during a freak sandstorm.
Baba Louie
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- 3,831
Drugs, dark nights, dark clothing, dynamic situation, BG coming at you... BANG! where DID that boolit really go? Better add another COM, maybe two. Maybe go to slide lock (it happens) while seeking cover or distance.
A lot of old adages come to mind. Bigger is usually better, handguns are a compromise, TV and movie expectations ain't real life and Murphy was an optimist.
Chemically enhanced ner-do-wells = Zombies we all laugh about until one is inside your comfort space with evil intent. That's when you realize you should be somewhere else and that your .45 should be a 12 ga Serbu Shorty with a 12 rd magazine (I kid but you know what I mean)
Ask any Cop about drugged up clients of theirs. Booze, Coke, meth, opiates, etc... each bring about different & interesting interactions which can change a boring 8 hr shift into 3 or 4 minutes of "Wow! Now, THAT was interesting".
A lot of old adages come to mind. Bigger is usually better, handguns are a compromise, TV and movie expectations ain't real life and Murphy was an optimist.
Chemically enhanced ner-do-wells = Zombies we all laugh about until one is inside your comfort space with evil intent. That's when you realize you should be somewhere else and that your .45 should be a 12 ga Serbu Shorty with a 12 rd magazine (I kid but you know what I mean)
Ask any Cop about drugged up clients of theirs. Booze, Coke, meth, opiates, etc... each bring about different & interesting interactions which can change a boring 8 hr shift into 3 or 4 minutes of "Wow! Now, THAT was interesting".
Loosedhorse
member
Drug addicts, EDPs (emotionally disturbed individuals), and "high-dedication" attackers share a common feature that make them formidable opponents: they just don't care at all if you shoot them.
My advice: practice failure to stop drills. A 9mm shot to the CNS is going to work.
My advice: practice failure to stop drills. A 9mm shot to the CNS is going to work.
Shadow 7D
Member
Right, something mentioned, maybe even covered earlier
When you can't count on the PSYCHOLOGICAL factor of 'Oh, I've been shot' THUNK
you are then stuck with mechanical and electrical failure
so shooting out the knees would be a mechanical, a CNS would be electrical...
When you can't count on the PSYCHOLOGICAL factor of 'Oh, I've been shot' THUNK
you are then stuck with mechanical and electrical failure
so shooting out the knees would be a mechanical, a CNS would be electrical...
I couldn't stop laughing when i read this.Thank you Kiln as you just made my day sir.
Oh.and to answer if a 9mm would be anough to stop a drug crazed BG that broke into my house?Hell yes as i would emptying my whole magazine(9mm) into that freak.........then maybe as i wait for the police i would conteplate the size of the multiple bullet holes in his dead carcass.......Just my 2 cents of course.
Jimfern
Member
3. Zombies are no joke, it can and WILL eventually happen. You're either prepared or you're undead, pick one.
This is my favorite.
This is my favorite.
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