Ruger/Savage Scout models' velocity difference; 5-8 hundred yard groups

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peacebutready

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Good Day All,

I'm comparing the Savage Scout to the new Ruger Scout to decide what to purchase. I asked a couple of questions in my last thread about them. One of the gentlemen mentioned the SHOT show this January and thought it would be a good idea to wait some more time before purchasing. I just read that today (I probably had my e-mail notification set incorrectly). I've since come up with a couple of questions.

The Savage Scout's barrel is 20.5 inches and the Ruger's is 16.5 inches. My chosen caliber will be .308/7.62mm. Most likely I'll be shooting 150gr ammo the most at inanimate targets unless I get a really good deal on other weight ammo. Does anyone know or have a good idea of the muzzle velocity difference between the Savage and Ruger?

If I'm not mistaken, both rifles can take a regular non-extended eye relief scope. The idea a person can go back and forth with 2 different scope set-ups is appealing. Right now I've only shot skeet/trap and pistol. I remember reading a claim that a .308 can shoot 1000 yards, I guess with an expensive rifle. Any idea how many inch groups (or MOA) the Savage and Ruger Scouts may shoot at 500 to 800 yards with a good conventional scope? Or how much of a difference there would be between the 2 models?

Thanks and Happy Holidays.

Update: The Savage Scout has a barrel twist of 1:10, which seems good or decent for up to 175gr through a 20.5" barrel. The 16.5"/1:10 twist barrel Ruger is apparently being used with up to 175gr as well. Please feel free to comment on any or all weights of bullets.

jpwilly: Thanks for the info about heavier weight bullets.
 
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150gr ammo isn't really that good for long range and the 20" barrel would be much better for that purpose too. Plus it would have a lower muzzle blast. You need some FPS and high BC bullets i.e. 168gr or 175gr bullets to get out to 800yrds accurately/consistantly.
 
The true scout rifle as originally conceived by Jeff Cooper was for use out to 400 meters. If you are one of the very rare people who can actually make a 400+ meter shot you already know this...
 
Tedzilla said:
The true scout rifle as originally conceived by Jeff Cooper was for use out to 400 meters. If you are one of the very rare people who can actually make a 400+ meter shot you already know this...
Click to expand...
I thought 400 meters was for 1000lb. wildlife, rather than stationary targets.

Thanks for posting.
 
There is a lot of bragging being done about the range capabilities of .308s with barrels of 18-20 inches. Some of it is even true. Bear in mind that a 20" AR 15 will hammer the target at 600 yards.

I'd worry about a 16 inch, though.

Actual group size on target depends on the individual barrel and ammo.
As said, a 150 grain bullet is not the best for extended ranges. Even the 155 grain Palma Match bullets depend on high velocity as obtained free from a 30 inch barrel.

Something else to think about, muzzle blast that close to your head might not be noticed when shooting at a bear or a Slav (The Steyr Scout was pictured in the field in the Balkan Unpleasantness.) but for a nice afternoon at the range, it will get old.
 
I agree.

Personally I won't use a Scout for further than 200 yards or so on live game after my expiriences with one, and the reduced muzzle velocity, this past deer season.

I've given the Scout concept an honest year of learning and trying but find it sorely lacking for what I do in regards to hunting. If that changes, and I hunt more closed in and wooded areas, then the Scout concept would be a viable option.

Biker
 
I don't quite understand the current rage over 16.5" barrels. A .308 loaded with ball powder and fired from a barrel this short is going to have a horrendous muzzle flash not to mention velocity loss. I like the Ruger Scout rifle as a concept, but I'd never consider of rifle in .308 with such a short barrel.

I remember reading a claim that a .308 can shoot 1000 yards
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This is true. The .308 is used in some F-Class competition, but to remain accurate at that range, the bullet must remain supersonic out to 1000 yds. This requires a muzzle velocity that won't be possible out of a 16.5" barrel I feel sure.

Personally I won't use a Scout for further than 200 yards or so on live game after my expiriences with one, and the reduced muzzle velocity, this past deer season.
Click to expand...

I'm curious about your experiences, reduced MV's, etc. I ask because the load I use with my Scout runs a 150 gr. bullet a tad over 2700 fps (18 1/2" bbl.). The way I sight it in, it's only about 9" low at 300. I could easily get more MV, but 30 or so years of deer hunting have taught me that this is plenty for any deer on this planet at any reasonable range. Heck, the 300 Savage only does about 2600 with a 150 gr. bullet and it's easily a 250 yd. cartridge.

For a while after I built my Scout, I used a load that ran a 165 gr. Remington a little over 2700 fps. At the time, I shot at a range that had targets out to 350 yds. Even with the 2.75X scope, hitting the gongs (oxygen & acetylene cylinders with the bottoms cut out of them) was no big deal.

35W
 
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Here is a good article on 308 and short,16" barrels

http://www.tacticaloperations.com/SWATbarrel/

They do better than most guys think. My personal preference is for 20" at a minimum because of muzzle blast. A 20" gun is more fun to shoot than a 16". But in this case I think the Ruger is the much better gun. I owned one of the Savage Scout rifles a few years ago and it did not impress me.
 
.308win/7.62 nato is one of the least effected rounds in terms of velocity loss by barrel length, measuring only in the 10's of fps/per inch down.
I highly doubt there would be and noticeable performance difference between the Ruger and Savage Scouts. As with any rifle, I'm sure each will have its "preferred" ammo. With the holidays here, time and money are tight I haven't been able to test my GSR. So far I've only shot WWB 147g at 100-200yrds and it does well enough. By spring I'm going to take a day and test as many different loadings as I can find.
 
JMR40: Thanks for the article. Unless I misread, the barrel they were referring to is 18" rather than 16". The Ruger is 16.5", I don't know whether that 1.5 inches makes a large difference or not because on one hand it is a small amount, but on the other hand it could be bad due to some dynamic that doesn't exist when going from 20" to 18". The article mentions suppressors, but that decreases velocity as well...If you owned the previous Savage Scout, the current one was updated.

35 Whelen: Above may interest you.
 
peacebutready, The 16.5 inch barrel would be fine for someone that reloads their own ammunition. Reloading allows you to tailor loads with faster/slower powders to get maximum burns out of your barrel. The problem with the short barrels is that, with 99.9% of factory ammo, you will not get a full burn therefore the loss of velocity as well as the bullet not being under pressure a bit longer. All that being said, the design of the .308 cartridge lends to better efficiency of burn rates so they do better than a lot of other cartridges do with shorter barrel lengths. But 16.5 inch barrels are just a bit on the short side for any truly efficient burn.

The Ruger scout rifle would be a great little rifle for heavy cover hunting because of it's compact size and low weight. But a long range rifle is not what it is intended for and would not be something I, or any hunter, would advise for shooting past 250 yards.
 
Thanks

Thanks all.

We'll see what SHOT brings us in January. I wonder how long it takes to purchase a model exhibited in the show. One fellow thinks Ruger will make available the 18" barrel model that they are exporting.

I'm not a hunter but rather a current pistol target shooter that wants to try high-power rifle target shooting.

I like the Savage Scout because of its versatility, relative accuracy, iron sights, cheap bulk ammo (compared to other center-bores), IER scopes for a few hundred yards, and an option for a regular scope for longer distances-that's why I inquired about 5-8 hundred yard groups. I should have noted using regular scopes as well in the beginning.

Hope all are having a good holiday season.
 
Ooops

I did mention regular scopes in the beginning.

Any other estimates for 5 to 8 hundred yard groups with a conventional scope for those 2 models?
 
Freedom_fighter_in_IL said:
peacebutready, The 16.5 inch barrel would be fine for someone that reloads their own ammunition. Reloading allows you to tailor loads with faster/slower powders to get maximum burns out of your barrel. The problem with the short barrels is that, with 99.9% of factory ammo, you will not get a full burn therefore the loss of velocity as well as the bullet not being under pressure a bit longer. All that being said, the design of the .308 cartridge lends to better efficiency of burn rates so they do better than a lot of other cartridges do with shorter barrel lengths. But 16.5 inch barrels are just a bit on the short side for any truly efficient burn.
Click to expand...
It just doesn't work that way. Regardless of how "complete" the burn is, you still lose velocity with a shorter barrel length. You also can't get extra velocity from a faster powder. Playing with Quickload a bit:

168gn SMK Ramshot TAC 44.5gn
20" barrel: 58,510 PSI, 2638fps MV, 99.4% burn
16.5" barrel 58,510 psi, 2524fps MV, 98.6% burn

168 SMK IMR 4895 44.5gn (compressed)
20" bbl: 58161psi, 2675fps MV, 99.6% burn
16.5" bbl: 58161psi, 2560fps MV, 98.7% burn

168 SMK IMR 3031 42.6gn (compressed)
20" bbl: 58157psi, 2665fps MV, 100% burn
16.5" bbl: 58157 psi, 2555fps MV, 100% burn

168 SMK Varget 45.3gn (compressed)
20" bbl: 59,519psi, 2637fps MV, 98% burn
16.5"bbl: 59,519psi, 2523fps MV, 96.8% burn

The above powders pretty much span the range of suitable powders for a .308 with a 168gn bullet. All the above loads run about the same pressure and are pressure limited. IMR 3031 burned 100% in both barrel lengths and was did not return a significantly higher MV than Varget which had the lowest burn percentage. The important thing to note is that all loads were limited by peak pressure and the pressure is not dependent on barrel length. Also of note is that every load lost between 110 and 115 fps of MV going to the shorter barrel, regardless of burn rate.
 
peacebutready said:
Any other estimates for 5 to 8 hundred yard groups with a conventional scope for those 2 models?
Click to expand...
The Savage has the greater potential. The Ruger has not demonstrated itself to be a particularly accurate rifle. Of course at that kind of range, either rifle is going to be limited by your ability to read the wind. With a 168 AMax, you're looking at 60" of drift for a 10mph x-wind at 800yds and that drift varies proportionally for the amount that you mis-read it. You call it 5 and it's 10, you miss by 30". Even being off by 1mph is 6" at that range.

MV matters a great deal at that range as well. With that same AMax, 50fps of MV is almost 2" of drift in a 10mph x-wind. The longer barrel of the Savage will give it more MV and every little bit helps.
 
Of course at that kind of range, either rifle is going to be limited by your ability to read the wind.
Click to expand...

Very, very true. This is the one factor I think potential (new) long range shooters don't understand. I built a 600 yd. range here at the house and the first time I shot it (Swiss K-31, GP-11 amunition), I was stunned at what an effect the wind had, especically that day because it was variable.
Later, just for gits and shiggles, I shot 600 with some cast bullets out of one of my 1903A3's. At a little less than 2000 fps MV, a 5 mph change or misjudgement in the wind would blow the bullet completely off the 36" target.

35W
 
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Why would you buy a scout rifle.......put a conventional scope on it...... then try to punch holes in paper 500+ yards away? That seems to entirely defeat the purpose of the scout in the first place. If you want to shoot paper that far away there are far better rifles for the job.
Pick up a copy of "To ride, shoot straight and speak the truth" by Jeff Cooper. Read it. Then buy a scout rifle.
 
Pick up a copy of "To ride, shoot straight and speak the truth" by Jeff Cooper. Read it. Then buy a scout rifle.
Click to expand...

...if the Scout rifle concept still seems to fit the purpose to which you're intending to put your rifle.

Think how silly you'd feel if you bought a rifle that wasn't really very good at your intended task just because it sounded cool in the advertisements!

(Yeah, like that never happens...)
 
It seems as if the OP does not really know what his intended task is. Clearly the GSR is not going to be a sub MOA rifle out to 800yds. But that was not what it was designed for.
 
Any Scout Rifle is going to be a handicap at 500-800 yards. That isn't the design intent.

If you want something for use at 500-800 yards, look elsewhere, and your skill is always going to be the determining factor, not the rifle-or at least any reasonable rifle and optic combination.
 
peacebutready said:
Thanks all.

We'll see what SHOT brings us in January. I wonder how long it takes to purchase a model exhibited in the show. One fellow thinks Ruger will make available the 18" barrel model that they are exporting.
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Yes here in Australia the Ruger Gunsite Scout comes in stainless with an 18" barrel (no flash hider) . I would call Ruger and see if it is available in the USA.
http://huntandshoot.com.au/general/advertisements/advertisement-the-ruger-gunsite-scout-rifle/
 
helotaxi said:
It just doesn't work that way. Regardless of how "complete" the burn is, you still lose velocity with a shorter barrel length. You also can't get extra velocity from a faster powder. Playing with Quickload a bit:

168gn SMK Ramshot TAC 44.5gn
20" barrel: 58,510 PSI, 2638fps MV, 99.4% burn
16.5" barrel 58,510 psi, 2524fps MV, 98.6% burn

168 SMK IMR 4895 44.5gn (compressed)
20" bbl: 58161psi, 2675fps MV, 99.6% burn
16.5" bbl: 58161psi, 2560fps MV, 98.7% burn

168 SMK IMR 3031 42.6gn (compressed)
20" bbl: 58157psi, 2665fps MV, 100% burn
16.5" bbl: 58157 psi, 2555fps MV, 100% burn

168 SMK Varget 45.3gn (compressed)
20" bbl: 59,519psi, 2637fps MV, 98% burn
16.5"bbl: 59,519psi, 2523fps MV, 96.8% burn

The above powders pretty much span the range of suitable powders for a .308 with a 168gn bullet. All the above loads run about the same pressure and are pressure limited. IMR 3031 burned 100% in both barrel lengths and was did not return a significantly higher MV than Varget which had the lowest burn percentage. The important thing to note is that all loads were limited by peak pressure and the pressure is not dependent on barrel length. Also of note is that every load lost between 110 and 115 fps of MV going to the shorter barrel, regardless of burn rate.
Click to expand...
I guess even more MV loss with 175 or 200 grains.
 
helotaxi said:
The Savage has the greater potential. The Ruger has not demonstrated itself to be a particularly accurate rifle. Of course at that kind of range, either rifle is going to be limited by your ability to read the wind. With a 168 AMax, you're looking at 60" of drift for a 10mph x-wind at 800yds and that drift varies proportionally for the amount that you mis-read it. You call it 5 and it's 10, you miss by 30". Even being off by 1mph is 6" at that range.

MV matters a great deal at that range as well. With that same AMax, 50fps of MV is almost 2" of drift in a 10mph x-wind. The longer barrel of the Savage will give it more MV and every little bit helps.
Click to expand...
Learning factors like the wind and then putting that knowledge into practice is one of the things that interests me.
 
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